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[Igncom1]

Not many frigates can survive a rapid fire harpoon pod if I am honest. You definitely misunderstand the power of a rapid firing medium missile mount against frigates.

If it killed even one target it has basically paid for it's self.

[intrinsic_parity]

If it killed even one target it has basically paid for it's self.

I completely disagree with this assessment you don't get paid out the value of a frigate for every kill. Trading 1 for 1 is horrible value for the player. That's like 30k down the drain unless you are doing zombie d-mod skill shenanigans. Sure you can probably sustain losses, but why would you not just use a better frigate that doesn't die?

[Wyvern]

I think Igncom1's notion was that it comes in, kills one enemy frigate, and then retreats, rather than dying...

...But I don't agree that's a good trade. The player is routinely outnumbered, after all.

(What I do find amusing is that, in the ancient days of Corvus, the Vigilance was actually my favorite of the starting frigates. But, uh, that was a time before ship systems, a time when pilums were actually good, and - for reasons that were never entirely clear - a time when the starting Vigilance variant came with 15 flux vents rather than the normal maximum of 10, all of which contributed to it being able to take on groups of three or four pirate frigates on its own. Which. Well. Nowadays, none of those things are true... and you don't generally see enemy groups as small as only three or four frigates, either. Typical enemy fleet sizes are a lot larger now than they were then, and I personally feel that the game's suffered for that.)

[Thaago]

(Pilums are actually pretty darn good for 7OP. Very useful long ranged support that can flame enemies out through their shields.)

[Goumindong]

I would have figured the buffs to Piliums would make this a much better ship.

Stick an Ion Beam or Grav Beam on it and let it huck piliums or Salamanders. Its not the cheapest pilium or salamander platform but its not an expensive one either. And its got a huge amount of OP letting you stick Unstable, Advanced Optics, ECCM, and ITU on it without compromising the core build. If you stick accelerated shields on it it can also defend against most missiles.

This gives it 135 speed and either 1105 range or 1122 range(or 1135 frankly i have no clue when AO is added to range calcs). Which if you really want the Ion Beam is not quite as good as the wolf, but the wolf is also 20% CR per deployment and has a 180 peak combat time. Whereas the Vigilance is 10% CR per deployment and has a 240 second peak combat time. With Hardened Subsystems that is almost cruiser peak combat time. Given that you may not have Support doctrine and you may still want some long term frigate support that is not an inconsequential consideration.

1100 range is almost more than 700 base range with capital ITU (1120) which points you firmly out of reach of Pulse Lasers, Blasters, Auto Pulse, and Plasma Cannons on anything but a paragon and 135 speed puts you out of range of non-high tech shielded frigates. Unshielded Frigates should get wrecked by the ion beam unless you're outnumbered (which often happens frankly). High tech frigates are a problem.

You're still vulnerable to cruisers (800 x 1.4 is 1120), and ballistic capitals but an avoid command will probably save you from them too until the extra ion beams each frigate brings means the capitals guns don't matter.

The point is that they're just not a bad way to round out a fleet. They have weaknesses but they also provide something pretty unique that its hard to find elsewhere. A Wolf can provide the same range on an Ion Beam but not for as long and not with Pilium Support. A Kite can provide the same amount of Salamanders but not with an Ion Beam. None of them that do provide similar missile support per DP stick around as long as the Vigilance and will be as willing to go into the next fight.

[FooF]

+1 to built in Expanded Missile Racks.

I don’t think you can do much for the Vigilance without adding a weapon mount. It has the capability of being a decent support craft but as I found in my latest Midline play through, they die too easily mid-game, even when I play them “safe”.

All that said, I don’t think they’re bad but they aren’t very competitive relative to other choices of equal DP. Maybe they need to be priced like a Kite.

[BigBrainEnergy]

All that said, I don’t think they’re bad but they aren’t very competitive relative to other choices of equal DP. Maybe they need to be priced like a Kite.

I could see it dropping to 4 dp and getting a small buff, but 2 dp is probably out of the question. Alex wouldn't give us a medium missile for 2 dp even if it was "balanced" accordingly.

[Sly]

I agree with the latest sentiments. It's fine for what it is, it just doesn't have any longevity in its missile mount. Pilums are a fine choice, but in general aren't very useful without coordinating with other ships equipped with Pilums. A mass Pilum strike shouldn't be underestimated.

I have a very strange relationship with a Salamander MRM on the Vigilance, because larger ships can usually mount one or two normal Salamanders to give them some versatility and not ruin their firepower. With the Vigilance, that's giving up more than half its available firepower for an occasional chance to knock out engines, maybe a gun, and deal token damage.

Chicken bone has some potential, but right now it's missing half the meat.

[BigBrainEnergy]

I have a very strange relationship with a Salamander MRM on the Vigilance, because larger ships can usually mount one or two normal Salamanders to give them some versatility and not ruin their firepower. With the Vigilance, that's giving up more than half its available firepower for an occasional chance to knock out engines, maybe a gun, and deal token damage.

While this is true, I think you're underestimating the sheer volume of salamanders you can pump out with fast missile racks when you don't need to worry about running out of ammo.

[Schwartz]

Also, it was mentioned that a 1-for-1 trade is never good for the player. The scales tip a bit in that direction when the player goes Industry, embraces d-mods and makes his ships easily recoverable. In such a situation, having a cheap Harpoon or Sabot spewer can certainly pay for itself even if it dies every other time.

[Goumindong]

+1 to built in Expanded Missile Racks.

I don’t think you can do much for the Vigilance without adding a weapon mount. It has the capability of being a decent support craft but as I found in my latest Midline play through, they die too easily mid-game, even when I play them “safe”.

All that said, I don’t think they’re bad but they aren’t very competitive relative to other choices of equal DP. Maybe they need to be priced like a Kite.

I would prefer ECCM. EMR is just not as good as ECCM for the Vigilance because the Vigilance should tend to be used with salamanders and pilium imo

Anyway I just want you all to know that i just started adding vigilance to my fleet(ion beams, salamanders or pilium) and they're working out pretty well. I've only added 4 but they're pretty survivable against pirates (not tried VS LP yet but LP hits way above their weight). The Ion Beam shuts down pirate phase ships and the main problem i have had with them is just because i do not have advanced optics yet and so this puts them more in range of some cruisers. (wherein they take too much damage). Accelerated shields tends to deal with all but the most significant missile barrages.

One thing that i quite liked was that because they're only 10% CR per deployment i don't feel bad about chasing enemy ships down with them even if I used them in the main deployment.

[Sly]

While this is true, I think you're underestimating the sheer volume of salamanders you can pump out with fast missile racks when you don't need to worry about running out of ammo.

Here's my estimation:

One (or two, in the case of engine/EMP defense) Salamander striking a target in the engines will knock them out and deal token damage. Any striking after that will only deal token damage - there's no benefit to inflicting EMP on already disabled systems. It's more likely to cause a flameout due to a larger volume of missiles, but if one or two don't get through, the rest probably wont either since the Salamander MRM with Fast Missile Racks still just fires in bursts of two.

A few small mount Salamanders in my fleet makes a difference, but dedicating a medium missile mount on a frigate to Salamanders is wasteful, imo. There's simply less PPT available compared to larger ships, where it can see use later into a battle.

In the end, I'd rather just sink the target or force them to retreat. The kind of high damage alpha strike a Vigilance can put out with damage dealing missiles outweighs its usefulness as a middling fire support gunship. Taking a destroyer or cruiser off the board quickly can turn the tide in ways temporarily flaming out engines can't.

Can a ship with disabled engines be easily attacked and destroyed? Yes, sometimes.

I'd rather the confirmed kill, where I don't need to rely on the selective initiative of the AI.

[Amoebka]

Adding a free ECCM and/or EMR is basically another meaningless buff that doesn't fix the core issues the ship has. The ship already can have those as s-mods. It's just adding ~10 OP (the two next most expensive hullmods). We've had two pretty big (on paper) buffs to Vigilance these last patches, and the ship is still bad. While I understand the appeal of changing a single number in a spreadsheet and calling it a day, OP/DP is not the end all be all of balance. There are problems it can't fix.

[Brainwright]

The primary issue is the Vigilance has a specific fleet role, but the combat script does not allow specialized roles.  A Vigilance will act like any other ship equipped with its weapons, even though its flux stats mean it never wants to be anywhere near the front lines.

It's just a behavior problem.

[Grievous69]

People talking about buffs when along with those buffs it received a very serious nerf for a frigate. Top speed is currently 110, think it was 130 before. No amount of tweaking and bonus built in hullmods will help out a poor squishy slow ship that either gives up all defenses to mount normal guns, or becomes an overpriced PD platform.