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[Grievous69]

I'm very surprised people are saying midline is hard to build with only their ships. I find you can have the best fleet out of only midline ships, comparing between techs. They have it all, tanky ships, damage dealers, fast ships, good carrier, missile boat. Other techs are one design spread across almost all but 2-3 ships.

Centurion is a great escort ship that's very cheap.

Monitor is a pain in the whole enemy's fleet behind.

Hammerhead is the most reliable destroyer.

Heron is the best carrier imo.

Gryphon vomits missiles during the whole fight basically.

Champion is probably the best line cruiser right now.

Conquest is one of the better player ships you can carry fights with.

And whoever said Drover is good probably meant Heron instead.

High tech ships are usually bad for AI, so your best bet is with the exceptions (Apogee, Paragon) and frigates. Non large energy weapons will always be underwhelming unless all high tech ships get nerfed across the board.

[Igncom1]

I know the Drover got nerfed, but how hard was the nerf?

And yeah if I had to pick a single tech for the best, Midline would be mine. Like they don't have the best capitals and frigates, but they are rarely not second best if not first. And pound for pound they have the best destroyers, cruisers, and even carriers (rip astral can't carry a whole tech on your own!) which counts for a lot. I think it's midlines diversity that is it's greatest strength, the others get a little too into their typecast.

[Grievous69]

I know the Drover got nerfed, but how hard was the nerf?

Even ignoring the system bug, Drover has 2 bays for 15 DP, while Condor has 2 for 10 DP. Then you have Heron with 3 bays for only 20 DP and it has a damaging system. Drover doesn't bring anything to the table this patch unless you really care about having destroyer burn and a more quality carrier than Condor.

[Igncom1]

Yeah without the system it does sound like a worse choice when compared to the 5 points more expensive cruiser carrier with an extra bay which would otherwise sound like an even trade.

Gone are the days of the drover spam!

[Thaago]

I don't think we have enough information to judge the Drover's balance just because with the bug in place we can't do any meaningful tests with reserve deployment. It cripples the fighters bays severely.

That said, if the system worked I think 15DP would be appropriate for the Drover if Condors are 10 - it used to be a phenomenal system. And if the Condor is the balance point for carriers at 10DP (I'd say its a little weak but it seems to be) then the Drover has massive advantages in stats across the board, from OP for heavier fighters/hullmods to speed for running to flux/shields to even campaign stats.

[ohama]

Whatever you do with midline, don't sleep on their frigates.
Centurion and Monitor can keep cruisers busy forever, effectively trading 6 DP for up to 30 DP.
LP Brawler is so cheesy that I don't use it.
Vigilance is a 5 DP missile spammer that can suddenly turn into a 15 DP missile spammer without warning. Personally I'd fit in more Centurions and Monitors if I have the space for a Vigilance.

[intrinsic_parity]

I really have a hard time justifying drover at 15 DP over heron at 20 DP, even with a working system. Heron has better stats, (notably being faster, in addition to tankier), has cruiser level hullmods, and arguably more powerful mounts, in addition to the extra bay, for only 5 more DP. I don't think drovers system (when working) is clearly better either. Plus heron is more conducive to efficient officer usage.

Even when drover was OP in mono spam comps, I still thought heron was possibly as good or better in small numbers as fleet support due to being more survivable and more officer-efficient. Drover was just good in that it could really maximize the number of fighters/DP, but now that has been nerfed into the ground, and it doesn't have much left.

[Plantissue]

I consider the Heron in need of a speed nerf as it disrupts the idea that a long ranged ship (because fighters are the longest ranged weapon afterall) should also be slow. It is instead fast and long ranged.

[intrinsic_parity]

I consider the Heron in need of a speed nerf as it disrupts the idea that a long ranged ship (because fighters are the longest ranged weapon afterall) should also be slow. It is instead fast and long ranged.

I mean, heron has a frigates weapon mounts and very weak flux stats for a cruiser. I personally don't think heron is too strong at all, drover is just way over-nerfed IMO.

[Plantissue]

It's a carrier, it's not supposed to fight with its weapons. It can defend itself against frigates just fine even with just daggers/longbows and it has more flux per OP than the Legion. In a fleet scenario, it essentially can only run into trouble if the rest of the fleet is dying. Or I guess if you aren't paying attention to what your ships are doing or ran out of commands.

[Igncom1]

Herons used to be BEASTLY, but now yeah they trip over their own toes and die just like any other carrier.

[smithney]

Herons used to be BEASTLY, but now yeah they trip over their own toes and die just like any other carrier.

Herons are still my favorite carrier. The fact that they descended from their godhood only makes me feel less guilty about abusing them :3

[intrinsic_parity]

It's a carrier, it's not supposed to fight with its weapons. It can defend itself against frigates just fine even with just daggers/longbows and it has more flux per OP than the Legion. In a fleet scenario, it essentially can only run into trouble if the rest of the fleet is dying. Or I guess if you aren't paying attention to what your ships are doing or ran out of commands.

I mean that's the whole point of the heron? It doesn't do much except run away and support fighters. If it couldn't run away, it would be pretty bad IMO. Mora and legion by comparison can't run away but can instead tank a bunch and shoot missiles (and legion can fire big guns on top of that).

I definitely don't feel like I need to use herons to be effective or something lol.