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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 21504 times)

Megas

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #225 on: August 04, 2022, 03:31:44 PM »

I tried six burst PD/HBL on Eagle, plus Advanced Optics and ePD.  (burst PD/HBL with AO+ePD is the only anti-armor option with enough range.)  They will damage targets below heavy cruisers, and it works against human fleets.  Better anti-armor (and PD) than Graviton/Tactical beams.  It was not strong enough against Ordos.

If anyone can make burst PD work it would be Eagle (and Medusa for destroyers).  But, again, burst PD spam alone is not good enough against Ordos.
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EadTaes

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #226 on: June 03, 2023, 02:28:13 PM »

So with 0.96 out and the Eagle supposedly having been buffed has anyone found GOOD eagle builds yet? So far my builds continue to feel so-so to barely barely decent. Long story short works well enough for small and medium fights but sucks horribly VS large fights and Ordos.

So anyone got anything? Or is this bird still worthless?
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #227 on: June 03, 2023, 03:52:22 PM »

I remember this thread! The eagle ended up with the exact buff I recommended but with +100 dissipation. The build I use hasn't changed much and now it works decently vs ordos.

Spoiler
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Mishrak

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #228 on: June 03, 2023, 06:50:26 PM »

The Eagle is still in a weird place.  It's a middle of the road ship, which is the design philosophy behind it.  It's decent at a lot of things but not great at any of them.  The classic Jack of All Trades Master of None.

It has fairly good mobility and the buffs in .96 did help a little, but it's unable to really excel at anything.  The SO variation is the most powerful one, but even fully officered it's still not great.

XIV Eagle is decent in the early game and can let you punch up a little bit against pirates and remnants but once you start getting to the harder bounties and end game stuff, it falls off in comparison to the other 20 DP Cruisers.

You can do most of the content in the game with Eagles but there's just straight up better options for everything the Eagle can do.
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Candesce

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #229 on: June 03, 2023, 07:29:57 PM »

You can do most of the content in the game with Eagles but there's just straight up better options for everything the Eagle can do.
What's better than the Eagle at being a wet blanket?

If I'm going to bring an Eagle to the fight, I'm planning on it being a tar-pit; something that might not win, but will at worst lose slowly, tying up a more-than-its-DP chunk of the enemy fleet while I flank and murder the rest.

Sure, there are plenty of better duelists out there, and I've little reason to ever pilot one myself. But this is a game about fights between fleets.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #230 on: June 03, 2023, 09:35:22 PM »

Told you it's only going to be a matter of time before the topic resurfaces.

So anyone got anything? Or is this bird still worthless?

The buffs didn't change the fundamental problem with the Eagle - it has too few mounts. You're basically looking at a 20 DP cruiser with three medium ballistics. For comparison you can get three medium ballistics out of a 9 DP Enforcer(obviously it has five mediums but not enough flux for that) And yes, Eagle is a cruiser so it gets more out of ITU, etc. I'm not saying you should be getting two Enforcers instead of one Eagle, I'm saying you should be getting any other combat cruiser instead of an Eagle.

With only three medium ballistics you're basically choosing: do I want an Eagle that can break shields but do next to nothing to armor or do I want an Eagle that can damage armor but which will never actually be able to get through the shields? I guess you could also try to mix them and end up not doing anything in general.

The three medium energy mounts? They do almost nothing in "support" role. Putting three Gravitons in them won't turn Maulers into anti-shield weapons. Putting three IR Autolances in them won't turn HVDs into anti-armor weapons(although this is still probably your best option) Putting three Ion Beams in them will turn off entire enemy ships, sure, but in a big battle more will only take their place and you're still relying on your other ships to kill them. Why get a ship that disables enemy ships hoping other ships will actually kill them when you can simply get more of the ships that kill and skip the "disable" part?

Two small missile mounts? Even with the Autoloader you can't rely on them for either anti-armor or anti-shield work, it's just too little. If Autoloader stacked with EMR/Missile Specialization then maybe.

The Lion's Guard version is interesting. If you go full energy damage you don't have to worry about having too few mounts, which is exactly what makes Hammerhead LG better than the regular Hammerhead(because regular Hammerhead has largely same problems as the Eagle), especially with Energy Bolt Coherer. But, ironically, Eagle LG doesn't actually get the EBC, making it basically just another hit-and-run high tech ship that only the player can use effectively. Although even with EBC, it would only be 100 range. It's noticeable on a destroyer but not so much on a cruiser.

I guess with beefier flux stats, Eagle can be a good SO flagship now or something. I wouldn't know, I don't care much about either SO or flagships.

To actually make Eagle work without changing its slot layout, we would need some "premium" medium ballistic weapons that can hit above their mount size - essentially a ballistic version of the Heavy Blaster(maybe mini-Mjolnir?) Then Eagle could leverage its great flux stats even with few mounts.
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Antichrist Hater

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #231 on: June 03, 2023, 09:36:49 PM »

Thoughts on this build? The 3 Heavy Machine Guns and the 3 Ion cannons fire at the same distance due to S-mod Integrated point defense AI and the Elite Point Defense skill.
I assume it would be at the same distance that an Arbalest would fire at if I replaced the heavy machineguns yet the kinetic dps is significantly higher with the Heavy Machine Guns. The Ion canons will disable and flameout the enemy but do no damage (same as the small IR Pulse Laser) yet allow you to go in for the kill with the Phase Lance, which is only slightly less range than the other weapons.

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smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #232 on: June 03, 2023, 11:32:14 PM »

I have seen opinions that are all over the place about the current Eagle. Haven't tried it myself, but as an enemy it finally doesn't feel like free scrap anymore. The extra speed means that it doesn't get punished as much anymore for overextending. But Eagle works best as a line ship, especially a flank protector, and it just so happens that the fleets it appears in need exactly that.

I also have to congratulate the fact that Falcon finally feels more like the "light" version of Eagle rather than just the "more efficient" one.

Anyway, please, do share your Eagle builds. I am eager to try it out in my next run, perhaps all of the variants!
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #233 on: June 03, 2023, 11:40:05 PM »

I'll keep saying this because it seems it'll never stop being a thing, you can't fit a square peg in the round hole. Eagle is a pressure ship enabling the real powerhouses to deal damage safer. Its biggest strength is not saying, which is now even better. Even before I found them useful at times, now with all the direct and indirect buffs I can immediately know who doesn't get the ship if they write that it sucks. Somehow people think you can only build ships like duelers, and when the Aurora-lite doesn't do stellar, they write it off and call it bad. It'll probably remain a mystery to most players but I feel it's pretty obvious with the fact it has such mounts and only 2 small missiles.

3 kinetics of your choice, 2 Gravitons, 1 Ion Beam, whatever missile you like and PD: You have the kinetic support. Obviously you'd change this build when fighting low tech enemies.
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CapnHector

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #234 on: June 04, 2023, 12:07:09 AM »

One thing the Eagle has going for it is definitely Missile Autoloader. This hullmod might not be particularly impressive on normal ships but on a cruiser with 2 small missiles you can have an infinite supply of any missile of your choice (for example Reapers do not run out in a regular Ordo fight). I did some detailed testing with the Venture (LP) (see thread in sig if interested in exact results) and 2x Reaper + Missile Autoloader was definitely worth its OP on that ship.

On an Eagle you could even use more exotic missiles like Hammer, Atropos, Breach etc. Just make the AI use them aggressively so for example link the Breach or Atropos with something.

I don't have a good Eagle build currently but it seems that a SO Eagle that has 3 x HMG, 1x Ion Pulsar, Converted Hangar + Sarissa, Missile Autoloader and 2x Reaper / 2x Hammer can go toe to toe with a sim Strike Radiant unofficered, un-S-modded and under AI control. Unfortunately, not win (although I was using a LG variant which is just worse for this build), so I won't post the build. The other interesting one is extreme range Eagle where you would spam beams with a LG Eagle.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #235 on: June 04, 2023, 01:31:02 AM »

Somehow people think you can only build ships like duelers

For AI use, yes, that is basically the only way to build them. If a ship can't do everything on its own(break shields, punish armor, defend against fighters) then it's a liability because there is no way to guarantee ship cooperation in combat. A ship that only "supports" is a waste of DP.
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #236 on: June 04, 2023, 01:38:58 AM »

Bruh if your Eagle is on the other part of the map soloing something, that's your fault for not ordering it to stick with the fleet. I know it's easier to click Full assault when you have a fleet of SO Hyperions and Auroras but the discussion becomes pointless when we only look from a single perspective.

This is why I'm also not a fan of those TTK tests where "oh trust me bro this ship is dog ass since it takes approximately 17.8 seconds to kill the enemy fleet, than x other ship". I couldn't care less if my one ship can't instakill an enemy, I care about flawless victories and not losing a third of my fleet even though the fight took 3 minutes. Is that the only way to play the game? Hell no. But I don't assume every single other player here plays the game like this. That would be silly of me.
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CapnHector

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #237 on: June 04, 2023, 02:07:58 AM »

Even my Venture (LP) fleet which I think is just about as aggressive as you can get (all reckless officers, fleet roams and hunts enemies, use Eliminate orders, don't care about losses so long as we win) consists entirely of "support" ships. These Ventures cannot win even a single Radiant or Onslaught in a sim duel. I built them so that three can defeat a sim Radiant without losses and they are designed to gang up on the enemy. It is perfectly fine to have ships in a fleet that can't duel so long as you play it so that they don't in fact duel (or just accept losses, makes game more relaxed and fun imo).
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #238 on: June 04, 2023, 03:03:38 AM »

Bruh if your Eagle is on the other part of the map soloing something

Eagles don't "solo" things, they just get killed.

Since Starsector uses "soft" orders that are then handled by the AI, it is impossible to guarantee that ship will be in any specific place at any specific time, or even shooting at any specific thing, which means any sort of ship cooperation is a lucky accident, not a rule. If you don't understand this then it is you who apparently just clicks Full Assault.
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #239 on: June 04, 2023, 03:12:35 AM »

CapnHector gave you another solid example of such strategy and you completely ignored it. I won't be a part of this conversation if the only thing the other side has to say "Nah the game doesn't work like that". You being stuck in one playstyle and refusing to experiment has no place in this discussion. Eagles just aren't for you, end of story. Now if anyone else has actual arguments and spent some time with them this patch, please go on.
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