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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 21510 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #210 on: August 02, 2022, 06:30:57 PM »

If you're including the jets of the eagle then the speed of the eradicator is like, 135, not 70...

Base Eradicator has AAF. Pirate Eradicator is the one that has Burn Drive.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #211 on: August 03, 2022, 11:53:42 AM »

Eagle's average speed is slightly below 75 (you won't trigger the system with perfect timing), higher than 60 of Champion or 70 of Eradicator.

If you're including the jets of the eagle then the speed of the eradicator is like, 135, not 70... and the champion is a heavy cruiser, the eagle should be much faster, not slightly faster.  By comparison that's the difference I think it ought to have to the falcon... and comparing it to the falcons characteristics gets even worse if you include manoeuvring jets.

Sure, but its 135 forward and only forward. And that is a significant issue.

Maneuvering jets also set your maximum acceleration to be the same in all directions iirc. Or gives a boost enough such that that is functionally the case that your rear acceleration is similar to forward. This is a significant effect in the ability to avoid fire and back away even if its probabilistic with regards to it going off when necessary for the AI.

So its entirely incorrect to say that the pirate eradicator has a speed of 135. Its not equivalent to the Eagles speed of ~75 in this manner.
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Cegorach

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #212 on: August 03, 2022, 02:38:43 PM »



Base Eradicator has AAF. Pirate Eradicator is the one that has Burn Drive.


Right.  Mea culpa


Sure, but its 135 forward and only forward. And that is a significant issue.

Yeah. But it still is speed.  Moreso than manoeuvring jets, which is manouvre, not speed.


Maneuvering jets also set your maximum acceleration to be the same in all directions iirc. Or gives a boost enough such that that is functionally the case that your rear acceleration is similar to forward. This is a significant effect in the ability to avoid fire and back away even if its probabilistic with regards to it going off when necessary for the AI.

Yeah, those are all true, but they're not speed. I'm not saying maneuvering jets are bad because they're great, but they aren't speed, flux dissipation, post modern architecture, or 1420 AD London poetry


So its entirely incorrect to say that the pirate eradicator has a speed of 135. Its not equivalent to the Eagles speed of ~75 in this manner.

Its entirely correct.  Manoeuvring jets are less about speed than manoeuvre, and burn drive is about speed, at the cost of manouvre  .  If you accept MJ as a speed increase then you may not dismiss BD, because it's doubly as valid.
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TaLaR

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #213 on: August 03, 2022, 02:51:46 PM »

Pirate Eradicator can catch up to Eagle, BUT since it traded AAF for Burn Drive, it lacks firepower to threaten an Eagle (unless it has massive character skills advantage). So Eagle still wins easily against it.
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Megas

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #214 on: August 03, 2022, 03:31:46 PM »

Pirate Eradicator can catch up to Eagle, BUT since it traded AAF for Burn Drive, it lacks firepower to threaten an Eagle (unless it has massive character skills advantage). So Eagle still wins easily against it.
Unskilled Pirate Eradicator with a good loadout vs. SIM Eagle is usually a win for the Pirate Eradicator.

I just tried pirate Eradicator with 2x Heavy Mauler, 4x Railgun, 5x Reaper, 2x Vulcan, with 20 caps and 30 vents.  Hullmods were Ballistic Rangefinder and ITU.  It won against SIM Eagle every time out of at least five duels.  Eagle came close once or twice (but still lost).
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Thaago

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #215 on: August 03, 2022, 04:39:35 PM »

I believe that, but the sim Eagle is... not so good lets say.


...
So its entirely incorrect to say that the pirate eradicator has a speed of 135. Its not equivalent to the Eagles speed of ~75 in this manner.

Its entirely correct.  Manoeuvring jets are less about speed than manoeuvre, and burn drive is about speed, at the cost of manouvre  .  If you accept MJ as a speed increase then you may not dismiss BD, because it's doubly as valid.

Errrr, no? Burn Drive is only forward. Maneuvering Jets is forwards, backwards, sideways, etc - a 50 speed bonus that can be active half the time for roughly 25 extra speed total. If the Eradicator is chasing the Eagle, then we should count the speed. If the Eradicator is backing off, then burn drive gives nothing.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #216 on: August 03, 2022, 04:58:51 PM »

Yeah, those are all true, but they're not speed. I'm not saying maneuvering jets are bad because they're great, but they aren't speed, flux dissipation, post modern architecture, or 1420 AD London poetry

No. They're speed. Speed is just the scalar component of velocity and acceleration is the derivative of velocity.

So if you have more acceleration you have more speed, it being the scalar component of the integral of acceleration, for any point at which acceleration is not zero.

And acceleration is very often not zero in Starsector.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #217 on: August 03, 2022, 08:06:12 PM »

Would this be a good time to badger Alex for HBL buffs? :P
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FooF

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #218 on: August 04, 2022, 08:48:14 AM »

HBL was buffed just last patch. I believe there was a suggestion thread about it maybe 2 months ago. HBL on the Eagle is a kind of a good stand-by because the Medium Energies are turreted and otherwise not vital to the primary damage. I don’t know if an HBL would buff Eagles disproportionately more that other bulls, though I admit that HBL on Eagles makes more sense than a lot of others.

I know I suggested something like making the HBL capable of shooting up to3 different targets at once (though beams could not converge) and upping the maximum charges to 10 or so. Basically, give it better PD saturation and, in a pinch, hit a single target up to 10 times for a decent burst. I think the ammo also came in clips of 3 every 2 seconds or something. Made it more of a generalist weapon but much better at shooting down missiles/fighters. Don’t forget it ignores Flares as-is.
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #219 on: August 04, 2022, 08:55:19 AM »

HBL on Eagle actually runs into the opposite problem it encounters 90% of the time. And that is not enough mounts to do actual damage so your small mounts will most likely do the PD duty. Eagle on the other hand has already enough mounts for PD, and getting an OP expensive inefficient PD laser, that's not even that much better than the small mounts, a bit of a waste. It's not a bad choice or a trap, but I still feel HBL is a bit cursed in its role and slot.
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Thaago

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #220 on: August 04, 2022, 09:01:34 AM »

The one thing HBL excels at is shooting down sabots before they pop - but it can only do that in a "clean" battlespace where other missiles aren't closer/saturating.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #221 on: August 04, 2022, 12:27:12 PM »

HBL on Eagle actually runs into the opposite problem it encounters 90% of the time. And that is not enough mounts to do actual damage so your small mounts will most likely do the PD duty. Eagle on the other hand has already enough mounts for PD, and getting an OP expensive inefficient PD laser, that's not even that much better than the small mounts, a bit of a waste. It's not a bad choice or a trap, but I still feel HBL is a bit cursed in its role and slot.
Can someone remind me why it costs 11 op instead of like... 9? It seems comparable to a regular Flak in terms of performance, so unless energy pd is supposed to be less efficient I don't see why not.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 12:29:35 PM by BigBrainEnergy »
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #222 on: August 04, 2022, 12:37:49 PM »

Yeah it's extremely meh, and I suppose the high cost comes from its smaller version which costs 7 OP on a small mount. Perhaps it would look weird that an "upgrade" is only slightly cheaper but at this point I doubt even that would help it much. It really needs better performance so you can justify sacrificing damage on high tech ships and range on midline ships.
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smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #223 on: August 04, 2022, 01:05:07 PM »

Yeah it's extremely meh, and I suppose the high cost comes from its smaller version which costs 7 OP on a small mount. Perhaps it would look weird that an "upgrade" is only slightly cheaper but at this point I doubt even that would help it much. It really needs better performance so you can justify sacrificing damage on high tech ships and range on midline ships.
The way I see it let's not limit the weapon changes by what looks weird. On the other hand, yeah, I have only ever considered HBL once, on an Astral. Doesn't help that IPDAI exists. I'm wondering what new weapons and changes are coming besides those teased in the blog posts. I wouldn't be surprised if HBL turned out to be an entirely different weapon next patch.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #224 on: August 04, 2022, 01:09:36 PM »

Yeah it's extremely meh, and I suppose the high cost comes from its smaller version which costs 7 OP on a small mount. Perhaps it would look weird that an "upgrade" is only slightly cheaper but at this point I doubt even that would help it much. It really needs better performance so you can justify sacrificing damage on high tech ships and range on midline ships.
It costs 4 more than the basic version, just like how a dualflak costs 4 more than a regular flak, but the problem with that comparison is both flak guns are competing for the same medium slot while a heavy bust is the only one that asks you to make that sacrifice.

Not to mention a dualflak represents more than double the dps while the heavy burst gets a lot of small buffs - a bit more damage, a couple more charges, a bit more range, ignores flares. While these are nice, they don't justify the opportunity cost of using up a medium slot and paying 4 extra points. If it costed 11 but was still a small it might work, or drop it to 9 op and there are some cases where it could see use. Probably.
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