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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 21916 times)

Hiruma Kai

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #180 on: August 01, 2022, 03:39:54 PM »

Why do people like Ion Beams so much? I just can't get my head around them, very expensive EMP weapons that deal very little damage.

I'd rather have a Graviton Beam over an Ion any day.

I use 3x Hyper Velocity + 3x Graviton on my Eagles but I have not done much testing on the Ion beam.

Well, I can try some maximum range shield pressure Eagles without Ion. What would the full build look like?

Although to be fair, if the Eagles are running Hypervelocity Drivers, the Champions probably  should be running something like Hypervelocity Drivers, Tachyon Lance, and Squalls in the face off, to match the longer range/lower DPS role.

I really really wouldn't want to see the Eagle get a fighter bay because that wouldn't synergize at all with the role the Eagle fills in a fleet.

Defining that role has been the exercise of this entire thread. What is the Eagle’s role currently and what should it be? At present, it only seems suited for long-distance pressure, or at least that seems like the safest approach. Its slow speed inhibits an assault role and its weapon placement makes the Medium Energies tough to utilize.

What should it be? If it is supposed to be a generalist, more speed allows for the Energies to diversify and do more of the heavy lifting. A flight deck increases the versatility/flexibility of the hull. I still lean toward more speed over a fighter bay but, on paper, I like the idea of Eagles contributing to fighter critical mass.

In Hiruma Kai’s fleet setting, 5 Eagles contributing 5 fighter squadrons would be a significant departure from the what the Champion brings to the table. At least I would imagine. Testing may prove otherwise. Likewise, Eagles screaming around at base 70-75 speed would likely change outcomes, even if loadouts didn’t budge. I’d prefer to see if assault variant Eagles, with higher speed, confer an advantage over current long-range support variants. My gut tells me that an Eagle with a Heavy Blaster or Phase Lances paired with efficient Kinetics would be superior, if it could engage/disengage better via speed.

Toss me a full build with your tweaked Eagle, and perhaps a different 100 DP core fleet to combine with Champions/Eagles if you want and I'll run it through 5 runs (basically setup, walk away, come back, note results), so not much effort on my part at the moment.

Assuming people are finding these results interesting.  To be honest, Goumindong's fit, at the 20 DP price point looked reasonably good. 2 wins/2 losses, 1 close fight is pretty darn good when trying to compare balance.  I suppose I should figure out if 0.95.1a officer skills were fixed with the AI tournament mod - haven't been paying much attention to the tournament scene lately.

I'll also note, Hurricane and Squalls are due for another nerf in the coming release - Hurricane splitting to 7 I think instead of 9, and Squalls are getting less hull/armor damage via script while maintaining the same shield damage.  So Squall/Hurricane Champions will be slightly weaker in comparison. At least that's what I remember from a post from Alex.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #181 on: August 01, 2022, 03:54:34 PM »

Triple ion beam is pretty expensive, you'd probably run 1-2 with gravitons in the other slots. I am interested in seeing more people take a shot at this.
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Zironic

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #182 on: August 01, 2022, 04:00:51 PM »

I usually fill all the small energy slots with normal pd lasers since in most of my simulation tests, burst PDs perform the same or worse then normal PD so it makes absolutely no sense to pay extra for them unless you already have extended mags.

I suppose you could do a test where their backing fleet is something like 2 astrals with 3x longbow, 3x dagger, 2x squall.
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Thaago

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #183 on: August 01, 2022, 04:27:35 PM »

An Ion Beam is useful on long range pressure Eagles because otherwise the AI can tank the hits on the armor. Going 2x HVD + 1x Mauler also does the same, but that is cutting into the kinetic budget a lot. The Ion Beam doesn't help the Eagle all that much because this configuration of Eagles lacks the ability to capitalize, but in terms of helping other ships and being a pain for the enemy, the Ion Beam lets them shut down enemy offense, flame out enemies through their shields from the front, etc. (It certainly helps the Eagle to catch smaller ships when they have no engines.) For pure kiting (IE HVD) Eagles, the EMP from the HVD's stacks with the Ion Beam to be more reliable in terms of shutting things down. The flux cost is only 200/second, so they aren't expensive - for the pure kiting build the ship doesn't need any skills/flux distributor/stabilized shields to be neutral so I'd even argue that 1 ion beam means the ship is undergunned for any crowded fight in terms of flux expenditure.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #184 on: August 01, 2022, 05:18:11 PM »

Assuming people are finding these results interesting.  To be honest, Goumindong's fit, at the 20 DP price point looked reasonably good. 2 wins/2 losses, 1 close fight is pretty darn good when trying to compare balance.  I suppose I should figure out if 0.95.1a officer skills were fixed with the AI tournament mod - haven't been paying much attention to the tournament scene lately.

That is about what I expected. Which would suggest that, especially if squalls and hurricanes are getting reduced in power, that the eagle doesn't terribly need a 10 speed boost, let alone a hangar bay and 15 OP.


Well, I tend to rear PD simply because AI likes to use Salamanders and the Eagle has fixed forward shields, but yeah I could go heavier on PD it's quite true. 

I find that regular PD tend to be enough to deal with Salamanders. And while the burst PD isn't quite enough without an officer to deal with perfectly with Squalls (and won't deal with hurricanes at all) the lack of needing IPDAI in order to avoid decoy flares makes it effective enough against fighters that its still worthwhile to have.

An Ion Beam is useful on long range pressure Eagles because otherwise the AI can tank the hits on the armor. Going 2x HVD + 1x Mauler also does the same, but that is cutting into the kinetic budget a lot. The Ion Beam doesn't help the Eagle all that much because this configuration of Eagles lacks the ability to capitalize, but in terms of helping other ships and being a pain for the enemy, the Ion Beam lets them shut down enemy offense, flame out enemies through their shields from the front, etc. (It certainly helps the Eagle to catch smaller ships when they have no engines.) For pure kiting (IE HVD) Eagles, the EMP from the HVD's stacks with the Ion Beam to be more reliable in terms of shutting things down. The flux cost is only 200/second, so they aren't expensive - for the pure kiting build the ship doesn't need any skills/flux distributor/stabilized shields to be neutral so I'd even argue that 1 ion beam means the ship is undergunned for any crowded fight in terms of flux expenditure.

You do tend to end up shooting the front PD though too. So its not quite so under gunned unless you have a strong officer. And if you do you can swap things around as needed. Add a second Ion Beam or add more front PD. If you have a PD officer this gives you decent front PD without IPDAI. If you don't have a PD officer then IPDAI probably "solves" the issue as it works.

The other advantage of the Ion Beam is that it allows you to quickly disable a lot of the fast ships that don't have shields. They also stack exceptionally well on a lot of different ships.


edit: 3x HVD 3xGraviton is very good 1v1 in the sim because the AI just doesn't want to approach that raw shield pressure. When the sim was full "*** eagle" it was very hard to build a ship that could beat it in the AI simply because the raw shield pressure was simply absurd and even like... SO Heavy Armor Aurora would not be willing to just like... go and kill the damned thing.

I am not sure its going to be bad I just like... Don't want to run it. Also since i am running officers the range band of the ion beam and the HAC line up pretty well. 800 x 1.65 = 1320. And 1000 x 1.55 = 1550. But the Ion Beams are set like 100 range back so its only a 130 range difference and the HAC projectiles still have a bit of range falloff whereas the beams do not. Whereas the HVD would be hitting to 1650, outranging the ion/graviton by almost 200 due to the mounting differences not including falloff potential. Which just means the Ions/Gravitons may just end up not getting used.

I am willing to entertain it but the extra lead is just quite good.

Worth noting that 3x HVD provide 600 ion DPS too and better armor hit strength (138 vs 50) so its not like you want to armor tank against that setup. But its just also just 456 less hard kinetic pressure per second (actual because the Eagle will be significantly underfluxxed with three HVD)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 05:29:26 PM by Goumindong »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #185 on: August 01, 2022, 07:17:08 PM »

Assuming people are finding these results interesting.  To be honest, Goumindong's fit, at the 20 DP price point looked reasonably good. 2 wins/2 losses, 1 close fight is pretty darn good when trying to compare balance.  I suppose I should figure out if 0.95.1a officer skills were fixed with the AI tournament mod - haven't been paying much attention to the tournament scene lately.

That is about what I expected. Which would suggest that, especially if squalls and hurricanes are getting reduced in power, that the eagle doesn't terribly need a 10 speed boost, let alone a hangar bay and 15 OP.

In my case, the jury is still out on the 10 speed boost with the cost reduction.  I don't think the fighter bays are the way to go.  Even at the 20 DP cost, the Eagle fleet feels a smidgeon on the weaker side.  It's close, so I wouldn't do anything drastic like add a fighter bay.  But the changing the speed/manueverability profile to match the Champion I don't think would be an over tune.

Just for fun, I modded Eagle to match the Champion speed and maneuverability specs, and repeated the shield pressure vs plasma/squall match.

So 20 DP Eagles, 60 base speed:
Champions win (2 Champions, 2 Centurions lost)
Champions win (2 Centurions lost)
Eagles win (1 Gryphon, 4 Centurions lost)
Champions win (1 Champion, 2 Gryphons, 5 Centurions lost)
Eagles win (4 Eagles, 1 Gryphon, 4 Centurions lost)
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Alex

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #186 on: August 01, 2022, 07:28:39 PM »

(Been keeping up with this thread, lots of good stuff here!)

Hmm. I've been wondering about maybe improving its shield efficiency a tiny bit (down to 0.75, from 0.8 ). I feel like it's actually in a pretty good place otherwise - I don't want to *change* it very much. FWIW, the way I see its role as ... "fluidly holding an area" might be the best way to put it. Something that makes anything weaker back off, and can safely disengage from most stronger opponents after driving up their flux, but lacks finishing power.

But also, right, with the Squall and the Hurricane getting a touch weaker, that might be sufficient if we're just comparing to the Champion.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #187 on: August 01, 2022, 07:41:49 PM »

This has gone so far you start the question if people even play the game in their free time, or just have an Excel spreadsheet open.

***, he's on to me!

(Been keeping up with this thread, lots of good stuff here!)

Cue Eagle (P) - 3 med composite turrets, 3 med missiles
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Dri

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #188 on: August 01, 2022, 07:42:08 PM »

So its role is...shield tanker? Not super exciting, I gotta admit.

Man, are we ever gonna get another ship with a unique built-in weapon?
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #189 on: August 01, 2022, 08:07:39 PM »

But also, right, with the Squall and the Hurricane getting a touch weaker, that might be sufficient if we're just comparing to the Champion.

The convenient thing about the Champion is it has load outs which seem to match the purpose of some Eagle builds (i.e. shield pressure support) with similar range bands, and is a shield tanker as well. Probably worth trying some different cruiser comparisons (4 Dominators, 5 Eradicators, 5 Furies), but those ships start to diverge in design even more so it's a bit harder to do a drop in comparison.  I suppose dual Mark IX Dominators and converted hangar Xyphos might mimic the kinetic/Ion mixture, backed up by some sabots/harpoons.  I could also just try 7 Falcons and a Kite.

Looks like I should also try 20 DP and 0.75 shield efficiency.

Out of curiosity, any changes likely coming for high scatter amplifier or beams in general (other than the new fragmentation beam) as those play into a large portion of the Eagle's effectiveness, in the same way Squalls and Hurricanes play into Champion effectiveness.
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Alex

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #190 on: August 01, 2022, 08:19:28 PM »

Out of curiosity, any changes likely coming for high scatter amplifier or beams in general (other than the new fragmentation beam) as those play into a large portion of the Eagle's effectiveness, in the same way Squalls and Hurricanes play into Champion effectiveness.

Nothing currently in-dev or planned, no.

So its role is...shield tanker? Not super exciting, I gotta admit.

It's not! But, gotta have some ships like that - "solid performer" rather than "superstar".

Man, are we ever gonna get another ship with a unique built-in weapon?

(Maybe? But as much fun as those are, they can also make for a ship with fewer loadout options, so that's something I want to be sparing with.)
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Brainwright

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #191 on: August 01, 2022, 08:40:39 PM »

It's not! But, gotta have some ships like that - "solid performer" rather than "superstar".

It's kind of the same problem, I think, with the Vigilance.  Shielded ships are either fast enough to disengage and vent flux, or they quickly are outmaneuvered by ships that can.  Some way of venting fast or preferentially dissipating hard flux seems like a must for shielded ships that fill that front line niche. 

Because the Falcon works pretty good, even if it's not the most powerful ship.
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TaLaR

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #192 on: August 01, 2022, 09:29:28 PM »

Imo, Eagle's main issue is AI. If Eagle is to win against Champion or Eradictor, it usually happens at near max range of Eagle's weapons (ignoring SO builds).

Cautious is just not an option - it doesn't maintain engagement, letting enemy retreat and vent easily.
Steady AI is incredibly flawed with long range combat, because it always starts to close range as it wins flux war. Which is completely unnecessary when you have at least equal range + speed advantage over the target. Eagle just needs to maintain range buffer (max range - 100 or so against Eradicator, even less against Champion, exact value depends on speed difference and target's mobility system, if any) so that enemies can't escape during Eagle's system cooldown. Getting any closer risks target flipping situation with weapon setup more efficient at closer range for no gain.
Aggressive+ is incapable of long range combat by definition.

In more general terms, I think ships need to be aware of their own and target's range bands so to say. Like 3 Grav + 2HNeedler+1HMauler + 3PD Lasers Eagle has 3: 1) Grav only 2) +Ballistics 3) +PD. 1st is really not a proper engagement, and it often should consider holding fire (for zero flux boost) in this range band when trying to catch up to a fleeing target. 2nd is it's bread and butter. 3rd exists mostly to bully slow frigates or non-combat ships, the only reason to go that close against a ship that can fight back is if target is faster than Eagle and would disengage quickly otherwise.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 09:45:50 PM by TaLaR »
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #193 on: August 01, 2022, 10:30:01 PM »

Never would've guessed shield efficiency change as a potential buff, but hey I won't complain. 20 DP and even more reliable for AI sounds pretty sweet.
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Zironic

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #194 on: August 01, 2022, 11:26:20 PM »

edit: 3x HVD 3xGraviton is very good 1v1 in the sim because the AI just doesn't want to approach that raw shield pressure. When the sim was full "*** eagle" it was very hard to build a ship that could beat it in the AI simply because the raw shield pressure was simply absurd and even like... SO Heavy Armor Aurora would not be willing to just like... go and kill the damned thing.

I am not sure its going to be bad I just like... Don't want to run it. Also since i am running officers the range band of the ion beam and the HAC line up pretty well. 800 x 1.65 = 1320. And 1000 x 1.55 = 1550. But the Ion Beams are set like 100 range back so its only a 130 range difference and the HAC projectiles still have a bit of range falloff whereas the beams do not. Whereas the HVD would be hitting to 1650, outranging the ion/graviton by almost 200 due to the mounting differences not including falloff potential. Which just means the Ions/Gravitons may just end up not getting used.

I am willing to entertain it but the extra lead is just quite good.

Worth noting that 3x HVD provide 600 ion DPS too and better armor hit strength (138 vs 50) so its not like you want to armor tank against that setup. But its just also just 456 less hard kinetic pressure per second (actual because the Eagle will be significantly underfluxxed with three HVD)

What I find in most of my battles AI vs AI is that while HVD is less dps then HAC, it's much better at what you actually want to do which is cause enemy AI ships to overload. There's two reasons for this. 1) HVD does more damage per volley then HAC so its more likely to push a ship above max and 2) The AI really really doesn't want to take HVD shots on armor, leading it to shield HVD when it would drop shield against HAC. Also combos super well with HE missiles.

Imo, Eagle's main issue is AI. If Eagle is to win against Champion or Eradictor, it usually happens at near max range of Eagle's weapons (ignoring SO builds).

Cautious is just not an option - it doesn't maintain engagement, letting enemy retreat and vent easily.
Steady AI is incredibly flawed with long range combat, because it always starts to close range as it wins flux war. Which is completely unnecessary when you have at least equal range + speed advantage over the target. Eagle just needs to maintain range buffer (max range - 100 or so against Eradicator, even less against Champion, exact value depends on speed difference and target's mobility system, if any) so that enemies can't escape during Eagle's system cooldown. Getting any closer risks target flipping situation with weapon setup more efficient at closer range for no gain.
Aggressive+ is incapable of long range combat by definition.

In more general terms, I think ships need to be aware of their own and target's range bands so to say. Like 3 Grav + 2HNeedler+1HMauler + 3PD Lasers Eagle has 3: 1) Grav only 2) +Ballistics 3) +PD. 1st is really not a proper engagement, and it often should consider holding fire (for zero flux boost) in this range band when trying to catch up to a fleeing target. 2nd is it's bread and butter. 3rd exists mostly to bully slow frigates or non-combat ships, the only reason to go that close against a ship that can fight back is if target is faster than Eagle and would disengage quickly otherwise.
I have not paid super close attention to what all the different personalities do. But as described isnt Aggressive supposed to maintain #2 range? If not it's what it should do, maintain range of all non-PD weapons - 100 or something is ideal generic range.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 11:29:13 PM by Zironic »
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