Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Goumindong]

Sorry but do you care about the experience other players have with Eagle? Or are you just defending Eagle no matter what because you like it and managed to make it work?

I do not particularly care about other people’s experiences because I cannot replicate their “eye tests” and because their balance criteria are often objectively bad and wrong. They are bad and wrong because you cannot have multiple ships in the same space that compete in the same way with both being better.

“Why can’t a new ship brawl an onslaught?” Is a question often metaphorically (and straight) asked and the answer is because that is the onslaughts job. Should the Eagle take the role of the champion? No. The Eagle needs to do its own thing. This question is being asked in this thread where people compare a harasser with a ship designed to be a finisher.

Sometimes this turns ships that are new into niche and sometimes this turns ships that are old into more niche. And the Eagle is just more niche than it was when there were four combat cruisers in the game.

Well too bad. When you keep adding more ships some of them are going to be niche. There can only be one “best generalist” and if you give the Eagle 15 OP and a fighter wing and 20 DP and 10 speed you’re going to be like “oh no the champion/Falcon has no use in my fleets anymore because it just doesn’t provide enough”. Or what happens when you have to fight these new super Eagles and ends up just not be fun.

Like the vigilance thread. There is idea that the vigilance should be a frigate that kites all the other frigates and also doesn’t need to worry about missiles and also competes favorably with tempests. That the logistics aspects of it do not matter. That the utility it brings, even if it’s actually unique as compared to other ships does not matter if it doesn’t compete in the way they want it to

I am defending the Eagle because it works. It actually just does the things that it seems like it should do. It does them pretty effectively if a maybe a little bit overpriced.

[UngaBunga]

Giving the Eagle better base speed and maneuverability and then an offensive ship system would go a long way to making it competitive. While new systems would be cool, what if there was one version that got AAF, and one version that got HEF? Say for a certain purple painted faction that has special energy weapons?

Before the Eradicator, my go-to assault chaingun ship was always the Eagle. It was one of few that could comfortably seat 3, with SO, of course. Fast, brawling ship that can mount a lot of firepower that takes advantage of AAF is occupied by the Eradicator now, which does it so much better than the Eagle ever could.

What I usually use the Eagle as nowadays is a sniper ship, to pick at the shields of stronger ships from a safe distance. Usually with three HVDs. I think a little speed boost and mobility boost would go a long way to making it a more viable ship, but most other ship systems are already occupied by far better ships.

[Grievous69]

Man this comedy arc just keeps on giving... I honestly don't know what to say to that first part without summoning blue text here. So you're telling me the vast majority of veterans (can't wait till Megas owns you) including the big kahuna dev himself, who already buffed the Eagle in dev, are somehow wrong? Yeah, makes perfect sense.

Don't know why you're acting that a simple buff like +10 speed and 20 DP cost will somehow make the Eagle the best cruiser in the game, I'd still probably pick it rarely. Even you admit it's a bit overpriced now.

[Hiruma Kai]

So just for amusement value, I grabbed the latest AI battles mod (13.0), and setup a shield pressure Eagle against a Plasma/Squall Champion in a fleet situation with no officers or fleet skills.

100 DP core:
1 conquest_Elite
2 Gryphons (Hurricane, 2x Harpoon Pods, 3 Sabots, Hypervelocity, 3 Vulcans, ECCM, ITU)
5 centurion_Assault (but with Harpoon swapped for Annihilator)

5 Eagles with:
3 HACs, 1 Ion Beam, 2 Harpoons, 2 Burst PD (rear), ITU, Flux Distributor, Stabilized shields, 30 vents, 25 caps)
Stats are as present in the current game, except I valued them at 20 DP instead of 22.

4 Champions with:
1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Squall, 2 HACs, 1 Ion cannon, 2 Burst PD, ITU, Stabilized Shields, 30 vents, 21 caps)

Results of 5 runs:
Champion Win (3 Centurions lost)
Champion Win (1 Conquest, 1 Gryphon, 1 Champion, 5 Centurions lost)
Champion Win (1 Centurion lost)
Eagle Win (1 Eagle, 2 Centurions lost)
Champion Win (1 Centurion lost)

At least in that configuration, a 20 DP Eagle looks like it still wants something of a tweak up.  Of course, perhaps the ships backing it didn't have enough HE missiles?  It's possible I've got the wrong ratio of shield pressure ships to more generalists/HE specialized.  I'm open to trying a few different fleet configurations.  Similarly, I'm curious if anyone wants to suggest a more balanced damage type Eagle configuration to try.  It's also easy enough to tweak speed or add a flight deck and OP if people want to see tuned up Eagles.

[Zironic]

I am genuinely surprised this thread is a thing because throughout my playthroughs I keep going back to the Eagle as my go to line cruiser. The main selling point of the Eagle to me is how incredibly AI friendly it and its smaller cousin the Falcon is. Just give it some hyper velocity cannons or heavy autocannons and it'll happily produce incredible shield pressure in an extremely safe way that then your carriers and battleboats can take full advantage of in order to blow the enemy up whenever they overflux.

I really really wouldn't want to see the Eagle get a fighter bay because that wouldn't synergize at all with the role the Eagle fills in a fleet. If you wanted to make it more on-par with the Eradicator you could make the medium energy mounts into hybrid, though honestly the fact such a change would be a major buff tells you more about how bad medium energy guns are compared to medium ballistics then anything else.

So just for amusement value, I grabbed the latest AI battles mod (13.0), and setup a shield pressure Eagle against a Plasma/Squall Champion in a fleet situation with no officers or fleet skills.

The thing about Shield Pressure Eagle is that it's ultimately a support ship, it needs someone else to do the actual kill. In my fleets that's usually a conquest with 2x MIRV launchers with extended missiles + missile officer who can execute people without shields all day long alternatively some carriers with daggers.

[Goumindong]

No forward PD? You put a flux distributor and stabilized shields on a ship that has 900 dissipation (660 post shield) and 838 weapon flux before those mods. You are actually dissipating more flux than you can possibly utilize and you’re paying how much in OP for it?

Edit: specifically I tend to like 2 heavy burst in the front and regular PD in the back with swarmers in the launchers but there may be fitting i implications for this without a mods. But I find that dealing with fighters and forward missiles is more important in the types of fights you tend to need to fight and you can generally rotate/prevent flankers with reapers in other ways.

[FooF]

I really really wouldn't want to see the Eagle get a fighter bay because that wouldn't synergize at all with the role the Eagle fills in a fleet.

Defining that role has been the exercise of this entire thread. What is the Eagle’s role currently and what should it be? At present, it only seems suited for long-distance pressure, or at least that seems like the safest approach. Its slow speed inhibits an assault role and its weapon placement makes the Medium Energies tough to utilize.

What should it be? If it is supposed to be a generalist, more speed allows for the Energies to diversify and do more of the heavy lifting. A flight deck increases the versatility/flexibility of the hull. I still lean toward more speed over a fighter bay but, on paper, I like the idea of Eagles contributing to fighter critical mass.

In Hiruma Kai’s fleet setting, 5 Eagles contributing 5 fighter squadrons would be a significant departure from the what the Champion brings to the table. At least I would imagine. Testing may prove otherwise. Likewise, Eagles screaming around at base 70-75 speed would likely change outcomes, even if loadouts didn’t budge. I’d prefer to see if assault variant Eagles, with higher speed, confer an advantage over current long-range support variants. My gut tells me that an Eagle with a Heavy Blaster or Phase Lances paired with efficient Kinetics would be superior, if it could engage/disengage better via speed.

[Zironic]

Defining that role has been the exercise of this entire thread. What is the Eagle%u2019s role currently and what should it be? At present, it only seems suited for long-distance pressure, or at least that seems like the safest approach. Its slow speed inhibits an assault role and its weapon placement makes the Medium Energies tough to utilize.

According to the lore text, the role is to be  a core combat ship with a wide threat range, especially good at punching down at frigates. In my experience it does that poorly because its best weapons are on fixed mounts that are hard to aim at faster ships.

What it does do well however is fill the core role of line ship. It has excellent PD and excellent long range pressure that's easy for the AI to pilot and is easy to slot into almost any fleet. Having 2-4 kinetic/pd eagles/falcons in your fleet makes the rest of your fleet better.

The main issue as others in the thread have pointed out is medium energy as a mount. If you deleted the medium energy slots from both the Falcon and the Eagle entirely, the effectiveness of the long range fit wouldn't meaningfully change.

Now medium energy weapons are better up close, but making the AI pilot a close range ship successfully is very hard, especially if the ship isn't extremely tanky (like an Onslaught) or extremely mobile (like an SO Hyperion). It easily falls into a cycle of behavior where it tries to charge in, notice its shield is getting beat up and back out before even getting into weapons range.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Defining that role has been the exercise of this entire thread. What is the Eagle’s role currently and what should it be? At present, it only seems suited for long-distance pressure, or at least that seems like the safest approach. Its slow speed inhibits an assault role and its weapon placement makes the Medium Energies tough to utilize.

According to the lore text, the role is to be  a core combat ship with a wide threat range, especially good at punching down at frigates. In my experience it does that poorly because its best weapons are on fixed mounts that are hard to aim at faster ships.

What it does do well however is fill the core role of line ship. It has excellent PD and excellent long range pressure that's easy for the AI to pilot and is easy to slot into almost any fleet. Having 2-4 kinetic/pd eagles/falcons in your fleet makes the rest of your fleet better.

The main issue as others in the thread have pointed out is medium energy as a mount. If you deleted the medium energy slots from both the Falcon and the Eagle entirely, the effectiveness of the long range fit wouldn't meaningfully change.

Just my 2 cents, removing the energies means losing ion beams on the long range builds (xyphos don't have enough range to work in such cases). For punching down, phase beams are pretty good.

[Igncom1]

Why do people like Ion Beams so much? I just can't get my head around them, very expensive EMP weapons that deal very little damage.

I'd rather have a Graviton Beam over an Ion any day.

[Brainwright]

Why do people like Ion Beams so much? I just can't get my head around them, very expensive EMP weapons that deal very little damage.

I'd rather have a Graviton Beam over an Ion any day.

Fairly punishing when combined with a kinetic battery.

[Zironic]

I use 3x Hyper Velocity + 3x Graviton on my Eagles but I have not done much testing on the Ion beam.

[Hiruma Kai]

No forward PD? You put a flux distributor and stabilized shields on a ship that has 900 dissipation (660 post shield) and 838 weapon flux before those mods. You are actually dissipating more flux than you can possibly utilize and you’re paying how much in OP for it?

Edit: specifically I tend to like 2 heavy burst in the front and regular PD in the back with swarmers in the launchers but there may be fitting i implications for this without a mods. But I find that dealing with fighters and forward missiles is more important in the types of fights you tend to need to fight and you can generally rotate/prevent flankers with reapers in other ways.

Well, I tend to rear PD simply because AI likes to use Salamanders and the Eagle has fixed forward shields, but yeah I could go heavier on PD it's quite true.  Although against Squalls and Hurricanes, you really need to go big or go home in terms of PD.  Without officer skills or even the Integrated PD hullmod, two heavy burst PD I fear isn't going to do all that much.  Against smaller missiles and fighters, probably worth while.  Still, arguably a better use of the 70 excess flux dissipation in this particular example which has no fighters, and provides a little bit of anti-armor when up close.

So for the following results I used an Eagle with 3 HACs, Ion beam, 2 swarmers, 2 heavy burst, 2 pd lasers, ITU, Stabilized Shields, 30 Vents, 23 Caps.

Also took the Elite Conquest and made it double Harpoons, double Hurricanes and dropped the blast doors for both sides, so more HE to follow up on the shield pressure.

I will note watching the first fight, it really does need integrated PD or officer skills, as the heavy burst PD did almost nothing against Squalls and Hurricanes.  They did work reasonably against Harpoons, and at least shot some Squalls down when multiple Eagles were shooting at the same Squall stream.  The perfect Champion wins were when an Eagle went down relatively early.  The extra Hurricane and Harpoons on the Conquest makes it a bit better at securing the kill against high flux ships.  Only once the Champions run out of Squalls does the fight start to even out.  On the other hand, campaign Champions can be running 3 times the missile capacity (and 50% more missile HP) while the Eagles are perhaps getting better PD setup with Point Defense or S-modded integrated PD.

I'll note I can also simulate S-mods easily by just hand editing the variant files in the mod's data/variants directory if people are interested.

Champions Win (1 Conquest, 2 Champions, 1 Gryphon, 3 Centurions lost)
Champions Win (No losses)
Champions Win (No losses)
Eagles Win (2 Gryphons, 4 Centurions lost)
Eagles Win (2 Eagles, 1 Gryphon, 4 Centurions lost)

Again, the randomness of the battle AI, but does look like a slightly better setup for the Eagles.  Again, I'll note this is assuming Eagles are 20 DP and not 22 DP.   There's also an argument to be made the backing fleet is missile heavy, and thus throwing even more (i.e. Squalls) into the mix means the Champions are getting slightly more synergy.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Why do people like Ion Beams so much? I just can't get my head around them, very expensive EMP weapons that deal very little damage.

I'd rather have a Graviton Beam over an Ion any day.

Here's a pretty good reason.

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/7V2MRsJ.png

[close]

[Zironic]

Your tests give me a funny idea. Imagine if the eagle traded all 3 medium energy slots for one large missile slot, imagine how powerful of a pressure ship it would become with the ability to mount a squall and 3x medium ballistics on the same hull.