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[Goumindong]

Things get better for the Eagle with pilot skills because while there are two skills that boost ballistic range there is only one that boosts energy.

So if you want that Plasma cannon you’ve got split skills on you officer. The plasma cannon is sitting at 750x1.55 for 1162 range but the HAC are at 800 x 1.65 for 1320 range. That is a pretty significant band (which you kinda need hard points to take advantage of due to recoil) and while there are things that you can add to the champion to negate that they’re not more efficient in general. If you do pick this skill for your champion pilot you’ve got to contend with the gap, which is fine but you also lose relative efficiency because all three front kinetic ballistics on the Eagle all benefit from that skill.

If we make the consistent with shield comparison you have 976 (1500 before missiles run out) on the champion and 1302 for the Eagle without the graviton beams…. [1408 with the graviton beams hella not worth go for PD]

This is like. An actual huge difference considering the Eagle is more accurate due to recoil and squall while not the easiest missile to shoot down still is a missile you can shoot down

[Dri]

Where the hell is Megas? I'm getting worried.

A 10 page balance thread and no Megas? I hope he is okay.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Things get better for the Eagle with pilot skills because while there are two skills that boost ballistic range there is only one that boosts energy.

So if you want that Plasma cannon you’ve got split skills on you officer. The plasma cannon is sitting at 750x1.55 for 1162 range but the HAC are at 800 x 1.65 for 1320 range. That is a pretty significant band (which you kinda need hard points to take advantage of due to recoil) and while there are things that you can add to the champion to negate that they’re not more efficient in general. If you do pick this skill for your champion pilot you’ve got to contend with the gap, which is fine but you also lose relative efficiency because all three front kinetic ballistics on the Eagle all benefit from that skill.

If we make the consistent with shield comparison you have 976 (1500 before missiles run out) on the champion and 1302 for the Eagle without the graviton beams…. [1408 with the graviton beams hella not worth go for PD]

This is like. An actual huge difference considering the Eagle is more accurate due to recoil and squall while not the easiest missile to shoot down still is a missile you can shoot down

You are really fixated on those HAC's eh? I'm not exactly sure how to tell you this, but you haven't explained at all how your build deals with armour. Don't tell me you're relying on 2 small missiles on a cruiser.

I've pretty much said my piece by now, so I won't repeat myself here. If you want to compare the eagle to champion please give me a build that will compete with anything I showcased in the video. The eagle has its place but it's just outclassed by the champion in a head on confrontation.

[intrinsic_parity]

The Champion, with a flux distributor, has 940 flux. If it has 2 HAC and a Plasma Cannon its got 428 Flux from the HAC and 825 flux from the Plasma Cannon. This nets a long term total weighted shield DPS of 1204. Plus 512 for the squall while it lasts. Makes 1716. This assumes its shield is not raised. You get a bit more out of HEF but not enough to quibble about an extra 7.5% DPS from the Plasma Cannon. Up to 1247 consistent DPS and 1761 when the squalls last.

You should check your numbers before accusing me of 'not typing them out because I am wrong' (or look back at the number I typed out previously that you apparently didn't bother to read). 2x HAC + plasma is (214*2)*2 + 750*1.075 = 1662 DPS to shields, compared to 3x HAC +2x grav + 1x Ion: 3*(2*214) + 2*(2*100) + 50 = 1734 (only 70 more shield DPS with 450 of that being soft flux which is significant). Given the soft flux, I would call that about the same. With squalls, champion has 2174 shield DPS which is a lot more. Also, HEF is burst DPS, not a flat small bonus, which also does matter a lot for winning the flux battle.

Not to mention that champion build is not specialized for shield DPS at all. If I wanted to hyper specialize into shield DPS like your build, I could run volatile particle driver for 450 kinetic DPS at 450 flux/sec which would give 1823 sustained shield DPS for 876 flux/sec (and very high burst too). Or if I don't have one, I could run autopulse and 4x IR pulse lasers for 10 more OP to get 1823 sustained DPS for 1158 flux/sec and 2335 DPS with squalls (before you bring up range I would probably do something like IPDAI + elite PD to match ranges with IR pulse lasers). Those would both be more fair comparisons to your build, but having plasma cannon for real hull/armor DPS is better overall IMO.

Then you can also consider burst DPS, which is very important for the flux battle. The autopulse loadout has 3113.5 upfront burst DPS, and if you consider HEF burst (50% damage) with autopulse burst, it's 214*2*2 + (150*4 + 1500)*1.5 = 4006.5 burst DPS to shield, before even considering squalls. Of course, that's ~2158 flux/sec too, but it's trading at 1.86 damage/flux which is very efficient and will win the flux battle unless you are shooting into fortress shields.

Like. An AI Champion fit as you describe cannot kill an AI Eagle in the sim before it runs out of squalls when the AI eagle is fit with only Heavy Mortars in the front and gravitons in the back which is an absurdly bad fit and i think that the only reason it will kill it before time runs out is because the Eagle is likely to get wedged on the side.

You can just say 'the eagle is fast enough to run away the whole time', which is what happens, and was already established by the 'eagle is faster' statement. Not sure what you are trying to say with this? Eagle is better at harassing/running away? Sure, but that's not what we were talking about.

Also, if you want to talk about skills, I put an officer with ordinance expertise into my ship and get the skill that give bonus dissipation as well. I run this champion build and flux is not a problem with skills. And of course you can do that on an eagle, but what are you going to do with that extra dissipation from skills? The medium energy weapon options are all short range and not very good for eagle. I would rather have a plasma cannon to utilize that dissipation than some pulse lasers or phase lances. I can also get missile weapons specialization to double squalls (and increase damage and rate of fire with elite spec), and systems expertise to increase HEF uptime which increases sustained bonus damage to 15%, and the extra charge also means the initial burst DPS of 50% spamming charges lasts 15 seconds (3 seconds with 4 charges and you get one back). Plus energy weapon mastery to increase damage even more, and elite to reduce flux cost further if that is still an issue. So champion benefits a lot from skills too in ways that eagle does not (at least nowhere near as much). Definitely not fair to just consider one skill that benefits eagle more and ignore the ones that benefit champion more.

Range is definitely a significant factor, but so is burst DPS, and so is hull/armor DPS that you are conveniently choosing to ignore in your comparison. I suppose the comparisons is fairly subjective because so many categorically different factors need to be weighed against one another, but I have personally not found eagle to be very good, while I have found the champion to be very good.

The only way I see eagle being better is in harassing and chasing down small stuff due to the speed advantage, but I think it's still not really that good at that, and there are better ways to achieve that IMO.

[Grievous69]

Where the hell is Megas? I'm getting worried.

A 10 page balance thread and no Megas? I hope he is okay.

Last post was only 4 days ago, he's probably okay. But yeah since you mentioned that, it does feel weird without seeing an opinion from the old man.

Btw I don't recall if flexing mathematical equations ever managed to achieve something on a thread. If you played the game for more than 5 hours you know the numbers don't tell you the whole story. Besides, trying to convince everyone in the thread here than Eagle is somehow better than a Champion (in any situation) is amusing to say the least.

Brb gotta go to the Vigilance thread and explain how it's better than a Tempest if the sun hits my window correctly on a Tuesday /s

[Goumindong]

You are really fixated on those HAC's eh? I'm not exactly sure how to tell you this, but you haven't explained at all how your build deals with armour. Don't tell me you're relying on 2 small missiles on a cruiser.

I've pretty much said my piece by now, so I won't repeat myself here. If you want to compare the eagle to champion please give me a build that will compete with anything I showcased in the video. The eagle has its place but it's just outclassed by the champion in a head on confrontation.

Other ships. Which is fine if the point of the ship is to hold the line. And the line doesn’t have to stay in exactly the same place it can bend as necessary. The ability to back away but still provide long range dps is one reason the Falcon is so good. But just because the Eagle is not as flexible in this regard as the Falcon does not mean that the flexibility and power density it does bring is bad.

I literally do not care that the champion can 1v1 an onslaught and a non-SO Eagle cannot. I do not want to 1v1 the onslaught. I want to make my line provide as hard a flux advantage as possible while having the least likilhood of exploding.

To do this I need only two things

1) some ability to keep shields up. This is to make kinetic DPS stick onto shields rather than be eaten onto armor.
2) as much kinetic dps as possible

The reason the example Eagle has an ion beam instead of gravitons (and one reason why I suggest to eschew the Gravitons in favor of front facing point defense) is because 50 damage for 200 flux keeps shields up but 200 damage for 75 does not.

There are some other things I want. The ability to dictate range (it’s OK to not be able to dictate range if you can force another ship to back off in terms of net long term shield pressure). So an Eagle vs a Falcon isn’t a clear winner for the Falcon being able to back off since it can never win the flux advantage to make a push. And since there is a maximum power density the ship can provide.

2x HAC + plasma is (214*2)*2 + 750*1.075 = 1662 DPS to shields

Only if your ship produces 1253 flux per second. Which the champion does not. If your ship does not produce 1253 flux per second then the DPS to shields is weighted by the average flux. I.E 1662 x 940/1253 = 1250 dps assuming the shields are turned off and 955 assuming the shields are turned on.

You can shoot higher than this and it may be wise to. But you cannot sustain higher than this. And the Eagle can.

You can just say 'the eagle is fast enough to run away the whole time', which is what happens, and was already established by the 'eagle is faster' statement. Not sure what you are trying to say with this? Eagle is better at harassing/running away? Sure, but that's not what we were talking about.

If the champion cannot prosecute the Eagle then it cannot push the line hard hard enough to win the fight. The Eagle is holding the line and if the Eagle is holding the line beyond the time your missiles run out then the Eagle is going to eventually grind you down. It may not deliver the final blow. But it’s purpose is not to do that it’s to make sure the line holds.

Not to mention that champion build is not specialized for shield DPS at all. If I wanted to hyper specialize into shield DPS like your build, I could run volatile particle driver

The omega weapon? You think it’s Ok to suggest that the Champion will be better because you can put an omega weapon it?

I mean. Ok Fair the VPD is a really really good weapon for the champion. And if you have one you could definitely build a champion around it. It would 100% make sense to put a champion on your line if you had a VPD to put into its large weapon slot. But “I have an omega weapon so I can make the champion into a thing that provides the kinetic pressure necessary on the line” isn’t an argument I am going to entertain for the Eagle having no value. You are far more likely to not have a VPD than to have one let alone one for every line ship you want to add.

  Or if I don't have one, I could run autopulse and 4x IR pulse lasers for 10 more OP

So you have no forward facing PD and are attempting to run 500 range weapons In order to fill the gap? Like come on you would not seriously suggest filling your line with autopulse champions and expect them to perform well. They would splash their Autopulse all over the front of the enemies line missing half the shots and the IR pulse would never fire unless the ship was going to die because your pressure was collapsing and the enemy fleet was stronger than yours.

Like. I have provided examples of me running this Eagle in a fleet and it doing well (though without the Gravitons and with PD in its place because not taking shield damage on my Eagles from saturation missile is worth more than some soft kinetic DPS. )

I actually think that had I used champions there they probably would have died. Because they would not have been able to back off against a superior pressure and would have been caught and killed. Without the swarmer SRM and heavy bust laser providing coverage they would have been felled by fighters. After that fight and a string of other fights I am considering adding more Eagles to my fleet not less. I did also consider adding a champion but only a single one. And I would have been flanking it with Eagles.

[intrinsic_parity]

Only if your ship produces 1253 flux per second. Which the champion does not. If your ship does not produce 1253 flux per second then the DPS to shields is weighted by the average flux. I.E 1662 x 940/1253 = 1250 dps assuming the shields are turned off and 955 assuming the shields are turned on.

You can shoot higher than this and it may be wise to. But you cannot sustain higher than this. And the Eagle can.
...
So you have no forward facing PD and are attempting to run 500 range weapons In order to fill the gap? Like come on you would not seriously suggest filling your line with autopulse champions and expect them to perform well. They would splash their Autopulse all over the front of the enemies line missing half the shots and the IR pulse would never fire unless the ship was going to die because your pressure was collapsing and the enemy fleet was stronger than yours.

I specifically said I am using skills/officers to get more dissipation. Flux regulation gives 10% more base dissipation which is 50 extra, (you strangely included the +5 vents but not the +10% base dissipation) and OE gives 160 dissipation for the autopulse loadout, or 188 with burst PDs in the back (which I normally do). That's 1178 vs 1156 flux/sec for the autopulse loadout, so I can in fact sustain the full 1823 shield DPS. I would probably run reapers/hammers in the large slot in that layout to give some kill potential. I also specifically mentioned IPDAI with elite PD for the IR pulse lasers to match range and give PD, but I guess reading is hard.

For the plasma loadout described earlier with an additional 2x burst PD in the rear, I would get 1158 dissipation, so that 'weighted DPS' would be 1535. Personally, I would actually run needlers instead since they are more efficient and also give 20 extra dissipation with OE. The numbers for that are:
250*2*2 + 750*1.075 = 1750 shield DPS for 200*2 + 825 = 1265 Flux/sec and OE would give a little more dissipation giving an overall weighted DPS of 1630.

It's sort of silly to do all this math to calculate some theoretical DPS when ships have nowhere near 100% firing uptime though lol. That's a big part of why sustained damage is not even that important. Combat happens in short bursts, not at 'steady state'. Burst damage is super valuable, and will force the enemy to back off or stop shooting and drop shields, which gives you time to build up charges again, or deal damage with missiles etc. Maybe stuff might theoretically die slightly slower, but if you win engagements more consistently, who cares.

If the champion cannot prosecute the Eagle then it cannot push the line hard hard enough to win the fight. The Eagle is holding the line and if the Eagle is holding the line beyond the time your missiles run out then the Eagle is going to eventually grind you down. It may not deliver the final blow. But it’s purpose is not to do that it’s to make sure the line holds.

If the eagle is max flux running away without even hitting the champions shields (that's what happened when I tested it), I don't think you can call that 'holding the line'... lmfao. That's more like retreating while your slower allies would be getting slaughtered.

[Goumindong]

I specifically said I am using skills/officers to get more dissipation. Flux regulation gives 10% more base dissipation which is 50 extra, (you strangely included the +5 vents but not the +10% base dissipation)

Not using that skill. Wasnt even considering it since it doesn’t fit in my current build*. (Which is fine to say that you can make a champion better with it but that still does not make it dominating). It was the flux dissipation Hull mod that brought the net dissipation up as I was attempting to max that. Though I could have made an error I was refitting on the mission refit screen and had some mods active because getting a champion in the mission system is a pain without mods.

It’s also possible i mistyped the Eagle value for the champion once. As the Eagle has 50 more dissipation and that would provide you your “+5 vents” I added to it.

  I also specifically mentioned IPDAI with elite PD for the IR pulse lasers to match range and give PD, but I guess reading is hard.

How many skills do your officers have? They seem to have Elite PD. Ordinance Expertise. Ballistic mastery, gunnery implants, elite missile specialization, field modulation, combat endurance, target analysis, and systems expertise.

No wonder your champions are so good.

Oh they don’t have all those skills unless you want to say that they could in order to boost their values in a particular spot.

But an Eagle is like… really easy to fit in this situation. You can run elite ballistic mastery, target analysis, combat endurance, and you still get two tanking or utility skills. (Almost certainly field modulation and ordinance expertise or maybe even Helmsmanship ) All of which I consider pretty necessary to most ships(well except Helmsmanship and ballistic mastery for non-ballistic ships).  And while on a spit ship you may want to avoid elite ballistic mastery it’s still exceptionally good. The extra 80 range and projectile travel speed is no joke.
 

So you want to have your long lasting missiles and your 700 base range IRPulse you have to choose. Do you not have the 1320 range HAC? Are they only 1240? That is an advantage the Eagle has then. Do you run heavy needler snd so only have 1085 range kinetics? That is an advantage the Eagle has. Do you drop field modulation? Then the Eagle has 29.4% larger base shields (slightly reduced as you add caps down to about 25%. Do you lose an extra 5% damage done and taken by not having combat endurance?* Do you drop just like 10 to 20% more damage to almost all ship classes where it matters?

*I mean ok this isn’t that huge but it’s still about 10.5 net effectiveness assuming 85% CR base.

If the eagle is max flux running away without even hitting the champions shields (that's what happened when I tested it), I don't think you can call that 'holding the line'... lmfao. That's more like retreating while your slower allies would be getting slaughtered

I mean.  Yea because I wasn’t going to bother adding in my Eagle to the sim to test it. And so the Eagle in question is just like… really bad. And yet you cannot kill it. If you were facing one with well set weapons that would not be the case. If you turned to “kill its allies” you would be surrounded and fluxxed out.

*cyber aug, for theme mainly. But also I figure the extra elite skills are probably better than the extra dissipation even though I am literally not using any of them right now. Like I have the three s mod skill but don’t even have three s mods on any of my ships yet.

[Vanshilar]

But that doesnt mean it doesn’t have a use or that it doesn’t have value for others. And if you only think about what you want to fit you will miss the value you can bring.

The 3 HAC Eagle provides more shield pressure than the champion (due to accuracy) for longer and for less DP.

I'm confused. Why is Eagle vs Champion about which one can do more anti-shield DPS? By that criteria we might as well as consider Eradicator (3 medium ballistics + 4 small ballistics + AAF) or Dominator (2 large ballistics + 2 medium ballistics + 5 small ballistics) and stick some Heavy Needlers or Storm Needlers on them. Or heck, might as well as talk about Hammerheads. Specializing in anti-shield DPS for your line ships just means that the enemy ships will retreat behind other ships, vent, and come back forward again. You won't make much progress toward actually killing other ships, which is the goal of the battle. "Other ships" isn't an answer, it just means you handwaved away the problem by throwing it onto magic unknown ships that can magically solve that problem for your specialized Eagle variant, which wouldn't be needed for the Champion being discussed here. Line ships need to do anti-armor/hull damage to work, and need to do anti-armor/hull damage quickly enough to kill the target before it retreats. Otherwise all that anti-shield DPS is wasted on letting the target vent behind other ships.

The Squall is being heavily undervalued. Who cares about the HAC's 1320 range when the Squall has 2500 range and can fire through friendlies? Even in some hypothetical Eagle vs Champion matchup, which is basically useless for comparing these ships (we're not interested in how they fare against each other, but in how they fare against enemy fleets), that range difference of 1180 range means that the Eagle is taking Squalls to the face until it closes to within 1320 range to use its HAC. (Point defense will get a small amount of the Squalls but not enough to really matter.) Since we're using math that doesn't matter, the Eagle has a 15 speed advantage over the Champion, so if the Champion is backing up, this means the Eagle has to endure the Squalls for 1180/15 ~ 79 seconds before it can even use its weapons. I guarantee its flux bar will be full by then unless it decided to face tank all of that, in which case its hull bar will be empty. If it's the Eagle that's backing up, then I'd say the Champion is successfully holding the line against the Eagle. That's your basis for focusing on anti-shield DPS right?

In the real world, based on testing against a 3-Ordos fleet, in a fleet of mass Gryphon spam, HVD does about twice as much as HAC, and Squall is worth more than 2 HVD until the Squalls run out. With EMR and MS they last until about 3/4 of the way through the fight, so they'd easily last through up to at least double Ordos, so there's no worries about running out. (Testing platform is officered Legion XIV on autopilot with 2 Squalls, Heavy Mauler on the nose, 2 Heavy Autocannons next to it, 2 Hypervelocity Drivers on the side mediums, 4 Railguns, and 4 Cobras, in a fleet of 10 Gryphons running Squall/Harpoon/Breach. All officers aggressive.) Basically if you're looking to hold the line with pure kinetic damage, you might as well as just spam Apogees with Squalls, or Atlas2's.

The Champion, by virtue of its energy slots, can mount weapons which can do both anti-shield and anti-armor/hull. The Eagle has to pick one or the other for its ballistics slots. So in any practical application as a line ship, if the Eagle mounts 3 HAC, then the Champion can mount 2 HAC + Squall, which will outweigh 3 HAC. The Champion still has its large energy slot left over for anti-armor/hull. Good luck getting the Eagle to do any anti-armor/hull with its medium energy slots comparable to the large energy.

And yet you cannot kill it. If you were facing one with well set weapons that would not be the case. If you turned to “kill its allies” you would be surrounded and fluxxed out.

That's because the Eagle is backing up, i.e. kiting. It is literally not holding the line, which is your rationale for focusing on anti-shield DPS in the first place. If kiting is what you're going for then forget about Eagle vs Champion and just stick a frigate there. The point is that even with "well set weapons" the Eagle is being forced back, and failing to hold the line. It has already lost the comparison.

[Fotsvamp]

That's because the Eagle is backing up, i.e. kiting. It is literally not holding the line, which is your rationale for focusing on anti-shield DPS in the first place. If kiting is what you're going for then forget about Eagle vs Champion and just stick a frigate there. The point is that even with "well set weapons" the Eagle is being forced back, and failing to hold the line. It has already lost the comparison.

A line that bends doesn't break. Sometimes it's better to take a step back and regain your footing then to be pushed over.

If the Champion pushes the Eagle back but is then under threatening fire from the Eagle's allies or running on fumes, rockets on cooldown, system out of charges and having a very high flux level having to either vent or hold fire for a while, there by forcing the Champion to back off to stay alive then the line has not broken.

Now if the Champion is able to force the Eagle so far back that the flanks of the Eagle's allies are exposed there's a breach, and if the side of the Champion has enough forces to exploit it then the line is broken.

So saying that the Eagle lost because it's backing up is excessive, I haven't seen it in a fleet setting, but it would seem that both possiblity I've laid out are plausible but these depend more on local force superiorty rather than the strenght of the ships themselves.

Imo it's fruitless to try and solve this solely through the math of both ships on their own.

[Grievous69]

This has gone so far you start the question if people even play the game in their free time, or just have an Excel spreadsheet open.

I had an Eagle during almost the whole last playthrough and I can't wrap my head around how someone could say it "holds the line". Scared Eagle will back away with the Jets and leave the allies open, you don't have to do math for that.

[FooF]

Ha, we’ve devolved into statistics vs the eye test. A point of no return. Personally, I think I’ve said all I can say. To summarize:

- Option 1: +10 base speed, add fighter bay, +15 OP

- Option 2: +25 speed

- Option 3: +20 speed, add fighter bay, +15 OP. Keep at 22 DP.

In order of preference: 3>2>>>>1. This thread has taught me that the Eagle needs speed more than anything. I still stand by the fighter bay idea a.) because it gives it something unique and b.) it makes it even more of a jack-of-all-trades.

[Goumindong]

I'm confused. Why is Eagle vs Champion about which one can do more anti-shield DPS?

Because the question isn’t “do I think this ship is better at what I want it to do” the question is “does this ship do a thing that other ships do not, how do I utilize this ships unique strengths and mitigate its weaknesses so as to have a valuable member in my fleet. “

The Eagle does indeed do a thing the champion cannot do. The champion simply cannot put as much consistent or safe shield pressure out. Consistent and safe shield pressure is a core component in effective fleet. You would have a better argument with the eradicator but it only has 400 base dissipation, and 9000 cap on 1 to 1 shields and not as good a way to keep enemy shields up with no ion beam or equivalent

This has gone so far you start the question if people even play the game in their free time, or just have an Excel spreadsheet open.

I had an Eagle during almost the whole last playthrough and I can't wrap my head around how someone could say it "holds the line". Scared Eagle will back away with the Jets and leave the allies open, you don't have to do math for that.

I am literally describing the effectiveness of the ship in my current play through.

Which has been more than adequate. I even gave concrete examples in a relevant combat.

Maybe your problem wasn’t that the Eagle gave a bit of ground maybe it was that your champion could not?

[Grievous69]

The Eagle does indeed do a thing the champion cannot do. The champion simply cannot put as much consistent or safe shield pressure out.

Sorry but I just can't take this discussion seriously anymore after this line.

Maybe your problem wasn’t that the Eagle gave a bit of ground maybe it was that your champion could not?

Didn't use a single Champion that run because I wanted to use the ships I don't usually get (at least lately).

[smithney]

@Guomindong
Sorry but do you care about the experience other players have with Eagle? Or are you just defending Eagle no matter what because you like it and managed to make it work? I don't think anybody would make suggestions here if they weren't miffed that they are challenging themselves by fielding a hull that's supposed to be a midline staple. Sure, there's nothing wrong about challenging yourself by using a niche hull as your fleet's backbone. But we are talking about hull with well established lore and reputation. A hull that's name dropped by the High Hegemon in the story for Ludd's sake. But here you're trying to prove that Eagle is fine, when veteran players have even delved into arguing details with you about how you're wrong.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, that's just a feeling I'm getting from this scatshow. I'm echoing Grievous69's sentiment that we're way too deep into details that should be in the realm of playtesting.

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