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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 21508 times)

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #135 on: July 30, 2022, 04:32:02 PM »

The Champion cannot put out as much long term net shield pressure due to its lower flux, generally less efficient and lower range weapon set, and higher recoil on the weapons for which it would put out kinetic. Nor does it have the reasonable space to put an Ion Beam and if it does it has to give up a tachyon lance for it. Which is nominally a point in its favor but it does significantly reduce the net shield pressure each can put out.

While the champion is a good ship it simply is not as efficient at shield pressure as the Eagle. Not in total and not per DP. And while i agree the eagle could be priced lower. That does not mean that there aren't situations i would not choose an eagle over a Champion and an Eagle over a Falcon for that matter.
You could argue the ability to mount a squall negates all of that.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #136 on: July 30, 2022, 04:47:53 PM »

I had not thought about the squall, though that also complicates the actual build. It puts you ~40 kinetic damage over the Eagle until the squall runs out (assuming similar accuracy from the eagles main guns and the champions, which is not a good assumption due to the recoil assumption)

But if you do mount a squall then youve got some significant fitting considerations ahead of you. Because the Champion only has 165 OP as compared to the eagles 155.

So after the eagle fits 3 HAC and the Champion fits 2 HAC and 1 Squall... They have the same OP left while the Champion has its large energy to fit and the eagle can dedicate the rest of its fit to the Ion Beam and point defense.

Again, not to say the eagle is explicitly better. But if you want a ship that can hold the line as long as possible from as many different enemies as possible, the eagle is it.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #137 on: July 30, 2022, 04:57:06 PM »

I had not thought about the squall, though that also complicates the actual build. It puts you ~40 kinetic damage over the Eagle until the squall runs out (assuming similar accuracy from the eagles main guns and the champions, which is not a good assumption due to the recoil assumption)

But if you do mount a squall then youve got some significant fitting considerations ahead of you. Because the Champion only has 165 OP as compared to the eagles 155.

So after the eagle fits 3 HAC and the Champion fits 2 HAC and 1 Squall... They have the same OP left while the Champion has its large energy to fit and the eagle can dedicate the rest of its fit to the Ion Beam and point defense.

Again, not to say the eagle is explicitly better. But if you want a ship that can hold the line as long as possible from as many different enemies as possible, the eagle is it.
I mean... 1 large energy is gonna cost you about the same as 3 mediums, if not less. In theory, yeah, the eagle is the best choice for a war of attrition, but right now it doesn't do its job well enough for the cost. Champions will pound the enemy into scrap with large missiles and just end the fight faster while falcons have the speed to stay safe. I would happily include either in a fleet but not the eagle unless it gets buffed.
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FooF

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #138 on: July 30, 2022, 06:37:30 PM »

The firepower disparity between the Champion and Eagle is hilariously large given “standard” builds.   2x HVD + 1 Mauler with Ion Beam and 2 Gravitons vs 2x HVD + HIF or Tachyon (with HEF) + Squall or Hammer Barrage? Even without the Large Missile, I’d rather have the Champion’s main armament. The Champion is even equal on range. (Small Energies are a wash, IMO). Tachyon w/HEF is murder compared to the Eagles’ passive beam pressure.

The Champion is 80% as fast as the Eagle but has like twice the firepower. Shields, armor, flux stats are all roughly equal or better. It’s a superior ship in almost every category for 5 more DP (previously 3!)

Now if the Eagle was built for assault, and could actually close distance and pull back, the disparity closes. A fast Eagle with 2x HMG, Heavy Mortar, 2x Phase Lance and Ion Pulser is a strong ship. The problem is that if you try that now, the Eagle just gets kited. A Faster Eagle can much more reliably dash in and out and/or pursue while staying in range. Speed makes so many more options viable.



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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #139 on: July 30, 2022, 07:25:16 PM »

But I don’t run 2x HVD 1x Mauler I run 3x HAC.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #140 on: July 30, 2022, 08:00:31 PM »

Fully specialized anti shield eagle is still worse than champion with a plasma cannon.

2x HAC (I run needlers but whatever) + Plasma cannon with HEF + squall is 214*2*2 (2 HAC with kinetic bonus) + 750*1.075 (HEF is 3 seconds up time/20seconds per recharge*.5 = .075 additional damage) + 256*2 = 2174.25 shield DPS for 214*2 + 825 = 1253 flux/sec and 70 OP.

3x HAC + 3x PL is 3*300 + 3*2*214 = 2184 shield DPS for 214*2 + 300*3 = 1542 flux/sec and 60 OP.

That is almost purely specialized into shields with much lower hull/armor DPS compared to HEF boosted plasma cannon, and it's also too much flux/sec for eagle to sustain. If you swap in an ion beam, eagle is way behind in shield DPS and still sucks against hull/armor. Realistically, you would probably not run pulse lasers to keep flux down, so you would be way behind that champion build in shield DPS.

I think in practice, champion having multiple HEF charges that will be recharging during combat downtime means it's effective in-combat DPS is probably higher too. Also, champion can increase effective DPS with systems expertise as well if you have an officer.

Not really seeing how eagle is better at brawling/holding the line.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #141 on: July 30, 2022, 08:34:52 PM »

The lower number of mounts on the champion isn't really a disadvantage when the eagle can't afford to run premium options in all of its mounts while the champion can.

x2 heavy needler + plasma cannon + locust
or
x2 hvd + tachyon + hurricane
or
x2 ion beam + HIL + squall

No matter how you slice it, the champion outclasses the eagle in terms of firepower. If the battle runs long then the scales tip slightly in favor of the eagle because it's less reliant missiles, but that's only at the tail end of a battle which you won't reach if you just lose.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #142 on: July 30, 2022, 08:48:03 PM »

The Eagle has 600 base dissipation and the champion 550. They’re both cruisers and so get the same base set and the champion only has 10 more OP to fit more and larger guns. How can you afford premium options on the champion but not the Eagle?
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #143 on: July 30, 2022, 09:03:30 PM »

The Eagle has 600 base dissipation and the champion 550. They’re both cruisers and so get the same base set and the champion only has 10 more OP to fit more and larger guns. How can you afford premium options on the champion but not the Eagle?
Because it has more mounts. You aren't going to run x3 heavy needler x3 pulse laser on an eagle. You might run x2 heavy needler + heavy mortar + x2 graviton + x1 ion beam, though. My point is you can't run premium in every slot so you have to compromise. In a vacuum this is better than having fewer mounts and running premium, but the champion has that plus a large missile and HEF. Not to mention how good large energies are compared to mediums.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #144 on: July 30, 2022, 09:41:04 PM »

Large energy with HEF and large missile are the reason why champion is better.

50 dissipation does not make up for how much worse the eagles mounts are. Eagle simply cannot use the same weapons that champion can.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #145 on: July 30, 2022, 11:25:18 PM »

For reference, here's multiple champion variants scoring much more convincing wins against the onslaught with the same parameters as the eagle build. Even then, it was only the XIV variant of the eagle with 10 extra speed and acceleration. I'm still not saying the eagle needs massive buffs, just some touch-ups.

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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #146 on: July 31, 2022, 06:25:46 PM »

Because it has more mounts. You aren't going to run x3 heavy needler x3 pulse laser on an eagle. You might run x2 heavy needler + heavy mortar + x2 graviton + x1 ion beam, though. My point is you can't run premium in every slot so you have to compromise. In a vacuum this is better than having fewer mounts and running premium, but the champion has that plus a large missile and HEF. Not to mention how good large energies are compared to mediums.

But you dont have to use all the slots. Like yea youre not going to run 900 dissipation of pulse lasers and 600 dissipation of heavy Needler on a cruiser

You may like the champion better than the Eagle and that is fine. It may fit better in your fleets and that is fine.

But that doesnt mean it doesn’t have a use or that it doesn’t have value for others. And if you only think about what you want to fit you will miss the value you can bring.

The 3 HAC Eagle provides more shield pressure than the champion (due to accuracy) for longer and for less DP.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #147 on: July 31, 2022, 06:56:34 PM »

You may like the champion better than the Eagle and that is fine. It may fit better in your fleets and that is fine.

But that doesnt mean it doesn’t have a use or that it doesn’t have value for others. And if you only think about what you want to fit you will miss the value you can bring.

The 3 HAC Eagle provides more shield pressure than the champion (due to accuracy) for longer and for less DP.
I never disliked the eagle, I just never used it. Now that I've messed around with it I kinda like its awkward weapon layout but I wouldn't keep one around in the end game because it just doesn't carry its weight in DP. With a couple tweaks it should be fine. -2 DP and +10 speed/acceleration won't fundamentally change the ship but it would make it much more appealing without going overboard.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #148 on: July 31, 2022, 07:32:54 PM »

The 3 HAC Eagle provides more shield pressure than the champion (due to accuracy) for longer and for less DP.
That is just not true...

I just typed out all the numbers, I'm not going to again. 2x HAC (or needlers) + plasma cannon + squall (a realistic champion build) does the same shield DPS as 3x HAC + 3x pulse laser (a completely overfluxed eagle build designed to max shield DPS). The non missile DPS (2x HAC + plasma) is 300+ more shield DPS than 3x HAC. So if you run beams in medium slots on eagle, you are way behind on hard flux shield DPS. 2x gravitons + ion beam is like just keeping up on total shield DPS (ignoring squalls and ignoring that some of the eagle damage is soft flux lol).

You could also run autopulse and IR pulse lasers (or even a volatile particle driver) to further max out shield DPS on champion. But I think plasma being amazing hull/armor DPS is much more valuable. The fact that the champion build can kill stuff easily and that eagle has terrible hull/armor DPS while just keeping up on shield DPS, is also kind of telling.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #149 on: July 31, 2022, 08:45:15 PM »

The 3 HAC Eagle provides more shield pressure than the champion (due to accuracy) for longer and for less DP.
That is just not true...

I just typed out all the numbers, I'm not going to again. 2x HAC (or needlers) + plasma cannon + squall (a realistic champion build) does the same shield DPS as 3x HAC + 3x pulse laser (a completely overfluxed eagle build designed to max shield DPS). The non missile DPS (2x HAC + plasma) is 300+ more shield DPS than 3x HAC. So if you run beams in medium slots on eagle, you are way behind on hard flux shield DPS. 2x gravitons + ion beam is like just keeping up on total shield DPS (ignoring squalls and ignoring that some of the eagle damage is soft flux lol).

You could also run autopulse and IR pulse lasers (or even a volatile particle driver) to further max out shield DPS on champion. But I think plasma being amazing hull/armor DPS is much more valuable. The fact that the champion build can kill stuff easily and that eagle has terrible hull/armor DPS while just keeping up on shield DPS, is also kind of telling.

You're not going to type out the numbers because you're wrong. You cannot be like "the 3 pulse laser eagle is massively overfluxed" without acknowledging that the Plasma Cannon uses up 825 flux per second on a ship that has less base flux than the Eagle or that you don't actually want to fit 3 pulse lasers on an Eagle.

The Champion, with a flux distributor, has 940 flux. If it has 2 HAC and a Plasma Cannon its got 428 Flux from the HAC and 825 flux from the Plasma Cannon. This nets a long term total weighted shield DPS of 1204. Plus 512 for the squall while it lasts. Makes 1716. This assumes its shield is not raised. You get a bit more out of HEF but not enough to quibble about an extra 7.5% DPS from the Plasma Cannon. Up to 1247 consistent DPS and 1761 when the squalls last.

The Eagle, with a flux distributor has 990 flux. If it has 3 HAC making 642 flux and an Ion Beam making 200 Flux its using 842 flux out of 990 and putting out 1334 long term shield DPS. If it has a single graviton its making 1534 and its STILL under flux budget. If it has two gravitons its only 3 over flux budget and making 1730 shield damage per second. With better accuracy(hardpoint recoil!) and longer range(well except for the squalls). Not subject to point defense. And without worrying about ammo.

If you want to count shield usage (or remove the flux distributor) then the eagle is even better in consistent DPS even though its shield is slightly more expensive. Because far more of its weighted DPS is going into its HAC than energy damage and none of its DPS disappears when the missiles do. Plus you can drop the Gravitons if you really want. With the Gravitons its better in terms of raw numbers but without them its better in terms of overall survivability(you can use the OP for point defense saving your damage on your shield... which is also damage to your DPS). 1188 shield DPS here[1306 with gravitons fit]. But the Champion is only making 955 consistent (though in this case its making more[1400 ish] until the squalls run out)

If you want to count sustainability then the Eagle is better here too because the eagle has 10% more base shield capacity and its 15 speed faster. Armor and Hull are not the only way in which ships tank especially when on the line.

"but what if i efficiently shoot the Plasma Cannon!" But you won't. And the AI certainly wont.

So while the Champion is probably an altogether stronger ship is simply does not dominate the eagle. The eagle has things for which its good at, its just like marginally over priced. It is actually 15 speed faster than the champion once you account for its ship system. It actually puts out more consistent shield pressure than a champion.

Like. An AI Champion fit as you describe cannot kill an AI Eagle in the sim before it runs out of squalls when the AI eagle is fit with only Heavy Mortars in the front and gravitons in the back which is an absurdly bad fit and i think that the only reason it will kill it before time runs out is because the Eagle is likely to get wedged on the side.

That doesn't mean that that champion is bad. But it really isn't just better than the Eagle at all things. 
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