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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 10461 times)

SCC

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2022, 09:48:09 AM »

One downside of giving Eagle a fighter bay would be that its energy mounts would be even less relevant.

bonerstorm

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2022, 09:51:41 AM »

Give it 70 base speed and Active Flare Launcher
/thread
THIS
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2022, 10:17:15 AM »

Active flare launcher is boring. Maybe something like a temporary range boosting system could be more unique and interesting without being too strong.

Also, I really think the fundamental problem with eagle is that the mounts don't work well together with the current weapon selection, so I am not all that convinced that solutions which don't address that will be successful in making it feel better.
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2022, 10:19:44 AM »

I was being goofy, obviously I'd hate for it to get a boring system. But the thread went in a "speed buff speed buff" direction I posted a satirical comment that isn't even that crazy when you think about it.
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bonerstorm

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2022, 10:21:14 AM »

Speaking of meaningless tests: I just-for-giggles tested a falcon with 2 HVD + 2 Ion Beams + 2 Burst Lasers + 2 Swarmers with ITU vs the sim eagle.

It was brutal. Falcon wrecked the Eagle and didn't even get her paint scuffed.

Yeah it doesn't prove anything, but it lends credence to the idea that the Eagle is just patently inferior to the Falcon and the reason why is because it's SLOWWWWWWWW. I'm going to use that Falcon build from here on out because that's a pretty decent escort/support vessel that - in some cases - would be better than just fielding an Apogee.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 12:05:18 PM by bonerstorm »
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bonerstorm

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2022, 10:25:10 AM »

I was being goofy, obviously I'd hate for it to get a boring system. But the thread went in a "speed buff speed buff" direction I posted a satirical comment that isn't even that crazy when you think about it.
It really isn't. If it's supposed to be - to quote: "at the core of military fleets headed for battle" then it could really use a system to make it more survivable, if not just a straight speed buff to make it a one-and-a-half Falcon. Because at this point the idea that it's a line battle cruiser is laughable.
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Thaago

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #96 on: July 29, 2022, 10:28:09 AM »

Personally I'd want a more interesting/powerful system than Active Flare Launcher because 70 base speed without a mobility system would be more reliable, but slower average speed than the Eagle has now (it averages to 25 iirc), and without the ability to scoot out of trouble/burst in. 70 speed + a damage booster system of some kind (both HEF/AAF would step on other cruiser's toes and are "samey", the energy weapon range+efficiency+pass through for beams I suggested didn't seem popular either) would make the ship more similar to the hammerhead in terms of its "place" in the cruisers, being medium in speed/defenses but higher in offense.

Whatever the ship system is though, I feel like it has to greatly increase the value of the medium energies. Those weapon slots just don't work on the ship very well.
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Salter

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2022, 10:43:31 AM »

One downside of giving Eagle a fighter bay would be that its energy mounts would be even less relevant.

There really is only a handful of options for fighter wings you could field meaningfully (Have any sort of impact) in a single bay. besides support fighters for cruisers isnt a terrible concept. Saves you on having to factor in a dedicated carrier into your fleet and lets you focus on warships that can actually mount an array of weapons to threaten another ship with.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 10:45:11 AM by Salter »
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Wyvern

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2022, 12:00:46 PM »

A random idea: give the Eagle an extra maybe 600 flux dissipation - and a built-in hullmod that doubles the DPS of beam weapons, but also triples their flux costs.

Since the Eagle can already carry 1000-range weapons thanks to its ballistic slots, we don't have to worry so much about the long range of beams being oppressive; the Eagle can afford to buff its beam weaponry without becoming overpowered, and the flux cost increase should be roughly balanced with the extra dissipation. While at the same time, that extra dissipation also makes it more reasonable to use pulse lasers or even a heavy blaster or two.

I'm not sure how much this would help, but it is at least something that should be easy to try out...
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #99 on: July 29, 2022, 12:03:00 PM »

I mean, you would probably just run heavy blasters with 600 more dissipation lmao.
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Wyvern

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #100 on: July 29, 2022, 12:20:08 PM »

Heavy Blasters, plural? I think you're underestimating the flux costs of heavy blasters, and over-estimating the base flux dissipation of an Eagle. Well, that, or assuming you'll be using SO.

What it would do, now that I experiment a bit, is put the Eagle into an interesting state where there are actually some decent non-SO builds that don't max out on flux vents.
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bonerstorm

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #101 on: July 29, 2022, 12:22:35 PM »

A random idea: give the Eagle an extra maybe 600 flux dissipation - and a built-in hullmod that doubles the DPS of beam weapons, but also triples their flux costs.

Since the Eagle can already carry 1000-range weapons thanks to its ballistic slots, we don't have to worry so much about the long range of beams being oppressive; the Eagle can afford to buff its beam weaponry without becoming overpowered, and the flux cost increase should be roughly balanced with the extra dissipation. While at the same time, that extra dissipation also makes it more reasonable to use pulse lasers or even a heavy blaster or two.

I'm not sure how much this would help, but it is at least something that should be easy to try out...
Like the guy said... people would probably just mount heavy blasters instead.

I don't think beams need to be buffed in this way. Maybe they need a buff in general, but not for this specific ship - not when there are more straightforward alternatives.

The Eagle and Falcon are just vehicles for HVD's. That's what they're good for. They put hard flux on far-away targets and flit away from return fire. The only difference between the Eagle and the Falcon is that the Falcon actually succeeds at this task because the Eagle is too slow and can't tank to compensate.

Random riff on Ion Beam/Pulsers because apparently some people hate them...
They exist for a very specific reason: They make life suck for ships that drop their shields. That's why Ion Beams synergize well with HVD's, especially when you're supporting another ship that's doing the actual frontline fighting.

That's also why I put ion pulsers on my Doom cruisers: so that when the enemy's flux is too high to maintain a shield, the Doom can drop reapers at point-blank range with a little extra assurance that they won't lose as much armor from return fire because the other guy's weapons or engines are sparking with EMP. They're also not bad for neutralizing fighters for the precious few seconds it takes to go back into phase. The value from the pulsers isn't in dealing out damage - it's in adding combat longevity to a ship that doesn't have regenerating shields and needs to conserve armor.

Gravitons are the only other medium beams that make sense, but I don't like their style. In a simulated dogfight, they can appear to buy you an extra few seconds in a long fight by increasing the other guy's hard flux... but, for my money, the tradeoff of lower soft flux damage is worth it for the EMP effects.
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Thaago

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #102 on: July 29, 2022, 12:26:52 PM »

... I think if the solution is to give a medium cruiser better than most capitals in flux dissipations while keeping a .8 shields, something else in the design might wanted to be changed first! :D

Also yes, this would make SO + triple heavy blaster the dominant build imo. 2400 dissipation with SO but no points in vents would be rather good.

...

The Eagle and Falcon are just vehicles for HVD's. That's what they're good for. They put hard flux on far-away targets and flit away from return fire. The only difference between the Eagle and the Falcon is that the Falcon actually succeeds at this task because the Eagle is too slow and can't tank to compensate.

...

I find this not to be true for the Falcon - HVD's are the "dueling" weapon because they have range, but I find they underperform in battle compared to Heavy Autocannons. Their DPS and efficiency are low on a ship without an offensive system and that struggles with powering its medium energy. The HVD + Ion is the harassing build, but closer ranged builds also work well because it has the speed to use them. For early game/budget Falcons that are focusing more on their energy mounts, Arbalests are even a good choice: dirt cheap, very flux efficient, high shot size, and the hardpoints make them more accurate.
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Plantissue

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #103 on: July 29, 2022, 12:27:48 PM »

Giving the Eagle the same flux dissipation as the Conquest is rather excessive to put it lightly. Fury has 600, same as Eagle and Aurora has 800 flux dissipation for point of reference.

You only need one heavy Blaster to have a big impact.
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #104 on: July 29, 2022, 12:39:04 PM »

Yeah not every Eagle build has to be a sniper, although that one is the safest.
The build from my current campaign which seems to do alright. Specifically didn't put Advanced Optics because I want it to commit more and not waste beams on side targets.
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