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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hostile Activity (09/01/22)

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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 9286 times)

BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2022, 12:04:40 PM »

Or let me put it this way: if in the next patch Eradicator was bumped from 20 to 25 DP I would STILL field eight of them as it's the only cruiser worth a damn.
Lol.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2022, 02:28:28 PM »

@Goumindong
Falcons punch down very well - they are both longer ranged and faster than most destroyers (only Shrike and Medusa are faster), have good stats for 14 DP, and are maneuverable enough to track small targets with their front guns.

True. They punch down OK. I find they're pretty vulnerable to frigates in ways that i don't like a "punch down" ship to be and i find that their loadout can be a bit hard to work with in terms of working with a fleet when they're doing that.
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FooF

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2022, 06:56:42 PM »

I’ve been a big proponent of adding a flight deck + 15 OP to the Eagle but the thread has me thinking about something sort of fundamental brought up earlier: why does the Eagle need to be slow? Why can’t it straight up be better than the Falcon? I.e. make it like 75 base speed with Maneuvering Jets?

A fast Eagle becomes something quite different. Not just “relatively fast” but actually fast. All of a sudden the Medium Energies aren’t nearly the liability they were before because of the closing speed and the Ballistics don’t all have to be long-range plinkers. It opens the Eagle to be an assault ship that doesn’t have the same staying power as a Champion or firepower of an Eradicator but it would be almost as nimble as an Aurora, just without the missile potential.

With the limitations of the hard points and inability to dump huge damage with flux-free missiles, I don’t see the downside of just making the Eagle a fast generalist. Heck, add the flight deck too and keep it at 22 DP. It might even be OP at that point.

Now, what would the point of the Falcon be? It’s still cheaper to deploy, it still has an extra burn speed and it is ultimately a hair faster. I don’t think a much faster Eagle makes the Falcon obsolete.

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smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2022, 12:39:56 AM »

I’ve been a big proponent of adding a flight deck + 15 OP to the Eagle but the thread has me thinking about something sort of fundamental brought up earlier: why does the Eagle need to be slow? Why can’t it straight up be better than the Falcon? I.e. make it like 75 base speed with Maneuvering Jets?
I think it boils down again whether Alex wants Eagle to be a better support, or become a generalist again. I'm more inclined to believe the latter. It's not just a matter of feeling good in players hands, they will have to feel good to fight against. Judging by the screenshots in the blog posts, neither SD nor Hegs are fielding Eradicators or Champions, both are fielding Eagles and Falcons*.

I don't think a supportive Eagle would cut it in either of those fleets. It would be a dead weight in Hegemony fleets, where support duty is relegated to small ships and the big ones do the killing. They would also suck in SD fleets, because they will need the cruisers to be the anchors, since the rest of their fleets is comparatively squishy (especially Executors). They would be probably fine as anchors in the SD fleets, but they would need to rely on smaller ships and Executors to do damage for them. Contrast Persean League, which seems to be losing its Eagles and Falcons for Champions, which are unarguably the best line ships in the current game, their capitals are also not as squishy as SD's (Pegassi won't have to worry about having enough blood flux for the Big D Energy weapons).

At this point I have a feeling that Eagle just needs the speed to punch down effectively. Falcon is probably going to get relegated to medium fleet Shrike duty, but it seems to be efficient enough to shine in it. As much as a semi-carrier supportive cruiser seems cool, no need to sacrifice the real Eagle for that. Besides, Venture and Colossus Mk. III already fill this role if you squint hard enough.

*missing from the Heg screenshot, but I doubt they'll be missing from the fleets

edit
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 04:33:28 AM by smithney »
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Drazan

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2022, 01:42:07 AM »

I would not like Eagle to get a fighter bay beacuse then you should put mining pod or xyphos in it otherwise the ai cannot use them normally. Ai with battlecarriers is really lacking right now.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2022, 01:44:34 AM »

Falcons are already a pain enough to fight. I cannot imagine also having to deal with Eagles that kite at that speed

I could see giving the Eagle a flight deck but I think I would rather just see it be cheaper. It’s OK to have some “only marginally OK” ships so long as they’re priced right and the 3 DP to upgrade to the champion is just a no-brainer when it might not be at 5. There would be a good progression if the Falcon was 14, the Eagle was 20, and the Champion was 25.

There has been power creep (and the Eagles primary advantage has been nerfed when HVD/maulers were brought back in line) but there still ought to be power disparity between different ships of the same class

I would be more amenable to logistics upgrades to make the ship easier to field as opposed to power upgrades. Built in. Nah Relay, or something new, call it “dynamic logistics components”* or something. Or “standardized design”**

*the primary component of cruiser school fleets this ship was to be a valuable addition to any size fleet as a result the systems were designed such that they could accept replacement parts from many different ships. This makes it exceptionally easy to repair and recover from deployments. Supply cost to recover from deployments is reduced by 25%


**designed first and foremost to be a ship that was easy to operate many components of this ships controls and operations were taken (and upgraded or streamlined) from successful and ubiquitous ships of the past. Flight controls from the Tarsus. Engine controls from the Gemini. Fuel containment and cooling from the star liner. Almost all prospective crew will already have deep knowledge of one ship system before they come aboard.  Maximum Combat readiness is increased by 10%
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Kos135

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2022, 02:22:39 AM »

I would not like Eagle to get a fighter bay beacuse then you should put mining pod or xyphos in it otherwise the ai cannot use them normally. Ai with battlecarriers is really lacking right now.
I had the same thought when posting in that thread about the Legion earlier. We need more short range fighter wings that cater to battlecarriers. Making the Eagle a battlecarrier by taking up the fighter bay & +15 OP buff would incentivize Alex to make more of those.
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smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2022, 03:10:30 AM »

Making the Eagle a battlecarrier by taking up the fighter bay & +15 OP buff would incentivize Alex to make more of those.
Oh I doubt it will, iirc the current state of fighters is giving Alex enough headaches as it is. If Eagle gets a fighter bay, we're less likely to see a new carrier rather than more. Regarding fighter variety, I think the pool's already large enough, save perhaps for another Support LPC.
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Drazan

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2022, 03:14:43 AM »

I dont think that we will ever see another close support fighter. Beacuse if there was anything better than themmining pod andd cheaper than the xyphos then it would be even moree of a nobrainer to just use them on every ship via converted hangars.
That said yeah the fighter variety we already got is large the problem is that you only rally want to use maybe 5 or 6 of those.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2022, 04:16:25 AM »

While fast Eagle sounds nice, I struggle to see how it wouldn't simply obsolete Falcon. Falcon's shtick has always been "Eagle, but faster, cheaper, and less armed".

Personally I find reducing Eagle's DP to 20 to be lame, and as others have said it doesn't make me want to use the ship any more than before.
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Ahueh

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2022, 07:54:46 AM »

Falcons and Eagles should, almost always, be given harass orders on enemy capitals or heavy cruisers.

Can you pick which ship you want to do the harassing? Whenever I use harass on an enemy, the game dynamically chooses which ship (I think it actually says frigate) will be sent to harass.
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FooF

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2022, 08:41:31 AM »

While fast Eagle sounds nice, I struggle to see how it wouldn't simply obsolete Falcon. Falcon's shtick has always been "Eagle, but faster, cheaper, and less armed".

Personally I find reducing Eagle's DP to 20 to be lame, and as others have said it doesn't make me want to use the ship any more than before.

Falcon will always be cheaper to deploy. You’re getting 2/3rds of an Eagle for 2/3rds the price that doesn’t slow down your Destroyer fleet. Granted, that’s not a huge niche but I’d dare say the Eagle needs more help/role refinement than the Falcon.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2022, 08:42:59 AM »

Falcons and Eagles should, almost always, be given harass orders on enemy capitals or heavy cruisers.

Can you pick which ship you want to do the harassing? Whenever I use harass on an enemy, the game dynamically chooses which ship (I think it actually says frigate) will be sent to harass.

Yes, after you create an order you can assign specific ships to it.
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Salter

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2022, 08:54:06 AM »

Falcons are already a pain enough to fight. I cannot imagine also having to deal with Eagles that kite at that speed

I could see giving the Eagle a flight deck but I think I would rather just see it be cheaper. It’s OK to have some “only marginally OK” ships so long as they’re priced right and the 3 DP to upgrade to the champion is just a no-brainer when it might not be at 5. There would be a good progression if the Falcon was 14, the Eagle was 20, and the Champion was 25.

There has been power creep (and the Eagles primary advantage has been nerfed when HVD/maulers were brought back in line) but there still ought to be power disparity between different ships of the same class

I would be more amenable to logistics upgrades to make the ship easier to field as opposed to power upgrades. Built in. Nah Relay, or something new, call it “dynamic logistics components”* or something. Or “standardized design”**

*the primary component of cruiser school fleets this ship was to be a valuable addition to any size fleet as a result the systems were designed such that they could accept replacement parts from many different ships. This makes it exceptionally easy to repair and recover from deployments. Supply cost to recover from deployments is reduced by 25%


**designed first and foremost to be a ship that was easy to operate many components of this ships controls and operations were taken (and upgraded or streamlined) from successful and ubiquitous ships of the past. Flight controls from the Tarsus. Engine controls from the Gemini. Fuel containment and cooling from the star liner. Almost all prospective crew will already have deep knowledge of one ship system before they come aboard.  Maximum Combat readiness is increased by 10%
I feel like that would make the Persean League rather top heavy considering they embody cruiser school ideas the most and this would greatly benefit them.

A speed boost for the eagle and falcon would feel nice though. Falcon's pretty flighty as it is which means it will zoom around the map, though not without competition from other similar high-tech cruisers. The Eagle would feel less cumbersome if it was faster, which I think would give it a distinct advantage as a support ship, considering with maneuvering jets and increased speed will see them dodge alot of stuff much easier.
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Goumindong

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2022, 12:49:09 PM »

I feel like that would make the Persean League rather top heavy considering they embody cruiser school ideas the most and this would greatly benefit them.

A speed boost for the eagle and falcon would feel nice though. Falcon's pretty flighty as it is which means it will zoom around the map, though not without competition from other similar high-tech cruisers. The Eagle would feel less cumbersome if it was faster, which I think would give it a distinct advantage as a support ship, considering with maneuvering jets and increased speed will see them dodge alot of stuff much easier.

I am not sure what you mean by this? The PL cruiser school should probably be cruiser heavy...

And a speed boost for the eagle may be ok but a speed boost for the falcon is a terrible idea
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