Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 18

Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 21502 times)

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2022, 02:37:02 PM »

Hmm, perhaps I'll give that a go then. What are the small mounts? Advanced optics, yes or no? In my past experience though what happens is that the AI Eagle is fluxed enough to not fire the phase lances, or if it does, it curiously misses or hit shields without overfluxing them.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2022, 03:27:13 PM »

Reading some replies there seems to be confusion as to what the Eagle and Falcon do. The Eagle and Falcon do not "punch down" like we think about killing swarming frigates and destroyers. A bunch of frigates and destroyers is a weakness of theirs because all their ballistics are pointed forward. What the Eagle and Falcon do is stalemate the flux war against a single enemy. You spend 14 or 22 DP and you remove an enemy capital (not radiant) because your falcon is just a pain in the butt the entire time. Falcons and Eagles should, almost always, be given harass orders on enemy capitals or heavy cruisers.

And they should be fit as such. Annoying and to keep the shields up. They provide a line to defend your carriers and to win the flux war on the front side. And they're actually good at that.
How is there nothing to support an Ion Beam, there's literally 3 ballistics lol. But the problem with Ion Beam is its flux cost.
Ion Pulser is great even for non-SO ships, Eagle is just a bad ship for it.
Pulse Laser was actually buffed recently to 1.0 flux efficiency. It has its uses, unfortunate part is that cruisers don't want it if they want to actually deal damage to other ships bigger than a Hammerhead.

Thankfully we're getting 2 new medium energy weapons next patch (although harder to acquire).

Yea and indeed Ion Beam is pretty best case on the Eagle. Not only does it have a lot of support but because the eagle is symmetric with a single Ion beam you can use the other energy slots for anti-fighter pretty well. A Falcon will not have coverage from one side, and so fighters they get close will penetrate the defenses. The Falcon also doesn't quite have the flux to use the weapon and still fire its ballistics either.

I can definitely see entirely reasonable eagles fit with

3x HVD or 2x HVD 1x Heavy Mauler OR 3x HAC or 2x HAC 1x Heavy Mortar
+1 Ion Beam or even +2 ion beams

+ ITU and basically who cares/Fighter defense/Capacity and Dissipation.

Almost its entire problem from a design perspective is that you could bring three falcons for 2 eagles and have 2 DP left over. And the 2 eagles would bring 6 ballistic, 2 ion, and 4 heavy burst* Beams 30,000 flux capacity and 1800 dissipation. And the three falcons would bring 6 ballistic, 30k flux capacity, 2100 dissipation, and 6 heavy burst but also be faster and wider and so be able to absorb more harass orders and will spread the enemy fleet out wider. The Ion Beams simply are not good enough to justify being slower and shorter.

*actually kinda good anti-fighter/missile for low flux now. Would be better if they didn't shoot at HE missiles unless your shield was down though. I fit this to be equivalent but i think that Falcons are better with 2x HVD 2x Phase Lance when harassing. Since it gives them a bit more protection from frigates and Falcons are more likely to randomly end up alone than eagles are. Plus Falcons have a much easier time avoiding saturation missiles. It also means they can push when they have an advantage. You could also run 2 phase lance on the eagles but don't want the eagles to get any ideas about getting close and i like the superiority value of killing saturation missiles too.

If the Eagle Cost 20 then you have 20 DP for 2 eagles vs 42 for the Falcons. You get 4 DP to shunt elsewhere. And as you add ships up that 4DP starts to matter. If the eagle is to stay 22 DP it should be faster. At 4 Eagles vs 6 falcons you would have 8 more DP, which might bump up the rest of your ships. Your 4 omens can become 4 scarabs. Rather than the other way around.

edit

I am not entirely sure whether or not i like 2x Swarmer in the missile (anti-fighter until enemies are out of missiles ) and Heavy Burst (takes over when enemy is out of saturation missiles) in the 2 side medium or i like Graviton in the medium (for the push effect on saturation missiles)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 03:36:52 PM by Goumindong »
Logged

Sly

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
  • Afflicionado
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2022, 03:53:44 PM »

When I build an Eagle in my fleet for current patch it's usually along the lines of:

2x HVD
2x Graviton
1x Ion Beam
2x Breachers

and sprinkle with PD.

For systems, converted hanger with aux mining pods and built-in whatever is available/suits my fancy at the time. All of my cruisers and destroyers are equipped with PD drones, for reference.

Gets the crap kicked out of it while it's by itself, but if it's by itself the battle is already lost anyway. Eats shields safely from a distance, provides PD support for surrounding vessels, and disables systems on targets. You can even pair it up with another Eagle equipped with Maulers if you want with triple Maulers and PD beams and watch the target burn.

I said this in another thread, but if I was going to give the Eagle anything, it would be some fancy-schmancy Operations Center type mod for free, making it a designated C&C ship. It certainly needs something, but there's already plenty of up-gunned cruisers out there already. Sure, it needs maybe a little speed boost and to futz with the logi stats a bit, but I think it's fine how it is.

It would be cool to have an *actual* dedicated C&C-type ship with Nav/ECM/OP Center I didn't have to gimp with built-ins and OP into making it so, but that's for another thread.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7174
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2022, 05:49:14 PM »

@Goumindong
Falcons punch down very well - they are both longer ranged and faster than most destroyers (only Shrike and Medusa are faster), have good stats for 14 DP, and are maneuverable enough to track small targets with their front guns.
Logged

Salter

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2022, 07:29:43 PM »

Eagle can punch down most frigates if they get a good shot off on them. With three medium ballistics, two hvel drivers and a mauler will do numbers on the weaker frigates and the AI cant always evade. Even something like double needler and mauler would work. Unless the frigate in question is a Hyperion or some other specialist frigate then the Eagle should be winning its fights against common frigates.
Logged

keckles

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2022, 08:29:20 PM »

This is how I build mine. Replace the LRPDs with regular PDs though, I've found the extra range really doesn't help that much with the frontal facing ones, if anything it hurts them as Annihilator Rocket bursts will distract them a lot.

This build works best with a Steady fleet doctrine and Steady officers, it's obviously not a high DPM build but it's a good 'line cruiser' and it'll hold it's position well enough against most ships. 4 Atropos isn't a lot, but it's enough to be a finisher when the AI needs it.
"giant image"
[close]

« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 08:44:47 PM by keckles »
Logged

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3786
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2022, 09:12:15 PM »

This is how I build mine. Replace the LRPDs with regular PDs though, I've found the extra range really doesn't help that much with the frontal facing ones, if anything it hurts them as Annihilator Rocket bursts will distract them a lot.

This build works best with a Steady fleet doctrine and Steady officers, it's obviously not a high DPM build but it's a good 'line cruiser' and it'll hold it's position well enough against most ships. 4 Atropos isn't a lot, but it's enough to be a finisher when the AI needs it.
"giant image"
[close]
Please put giant images in spoiler tags, thanks! (Or crop to just the relevant section of the screenshot. Or both! Both is good.)
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Kos135

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2022, 09:26:29 PM »

My impression of the Eagle has been the same as most other people, it looks good on paper but it's mediocre and easily surpassed by other ships in its DP range. I'm going to try using a couple of officered Eagles in my current playthrough with the following build:

Vanilla Eagle (I'm not using the XIV version for thematic reasons, use XIV if you want to minmax)
Weapons:
2x HVDs
1x Heavy Mauler
3x Burst Lasers
3x Graviton Beams
2x Swarmer SRM Launcher
Hullmods:
Built-in Hardened Shields and ITU
Stabilized Shields
Other:
19 Capacitors
35 Vents
(keep in mind, following flux stats are with a level 6 officer + fleet-wide character skills)
Total Flux Capacitors: 15790
Total Flux Vents: 1188
Shield Flux/sec: 120
Shield Flux/dmg: 0.53
Weapon Flux/sec: 815
Top speed: 59
Armor: 1000
Hull: 8000

For officers I'll be hoping for the following:
Reckless personality
Elite skills: Field Modulation and Target Analysis
Helmsmanship
Ballistic Mastery
Gunnery Implants
Ordnance Expertise

The idea is for the two Eagles to serve as body blockers for my two Astrals (4x Trident, 2x Longbow) in a peer engagement. Hence the reckless personalities, so they'll stay in front and do their job. The powerful shield, long-range kinetic attacks, and ability to quickly shut down an enemy's weapons (ion dmg from HVDs and 100% bonus dmg to weapons/engines from elite Target Analysis) will deter most enemy ships from trying to bum rush the Astral. I believe an ion beam would be redundant and only serve to weaken the Eagle in the flux duel with its opponent(s), compared to 3x Gravitons.

It also has substantial point defense from the 3x Burst Lasers and 2x Swarmers to swat missiles and fighters. 3x Burst Lasers are more than enough to stop an incoming reaper torpedo, which can make all the difference in many matchups.

Obviously, getting that ideal officer with just the right skills is a matter of RNG (officer skills trees plz!). I'm iffy on elite Target Analysis, I'll have to watch and see how much of a difference it will make. But I suspect that an elite slot would be better spent on something else. Maybe Ordnance Expertise to get more flux capacitors? That would up the total from 15790 to 17630, almost a 2000 point increase. But being able to overload an enemy's shields and then follow up by quickly shutting down their weapons is a strong deterrent, and that is what this build is designed to do, body block and deter.

The 3 essential skills for this build are Field Modulation (elite), Gunnery Implants and Helmsmanship. Feel free to pick the build apart and offer suggestions since this is my first time bothering to experiment with the Eagle.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to give my 2 cents on how to improve the Eagle. In another thread someone else suggested that it be given a hangar slot. I would give the Eagle a hangar slot plus another 15 OP to cover the cost of a fighter wing. Also an extra 10 top speed to make it reasonably quick for a cruiser. I'm tempted to throw in a free hullmod of some kind as well but I think that would be overcompensating, it would have to be one of the cheaper ones. Maybe Resistant Flux Coils? Cheap, but still useful without being a must-have like ITU.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 09:39:01 PM by Kos135 »
Logged
You cannot trick an honest man, only a villain will fall for it.

BCS

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2022, 09:39:35 PM »

You've just given the counterexample yourself. Eagle has higher shield upkeep relative to dissipation. Fury used to be 15 DP, which is why the stats are on the lower side. Most people agree it was overnerfed when pushed to 20 dp.

Look at Aurora then for an even more extreme example of shield tax. And Eagle mostly fits ballistic weapons which are not as flux hungry.

Quote
I don't want to sound unkind, but most of your statements are the opposite of what is considered common sense among the experienced players. Speed is a very (if not the most) important stat. Getting closer quick means less time tanking damage without being able to trade back.


Only stations outrange every ship by default. Use long range weapons, preferably with Integrated Targeting Unit, and you don't need to charge into enemy line in the first place. Why worry about how long you're exposed to enemy fire when you can NOT be exposed to enemy fire at all? Then you can spend all your flux on shooting instead of on shield and blocking enemy shots. How's that for "common sense"? I will admit that speed plays a role but mostly when kiting, disengaging and chasing down stragglers once the battle is won. Which neatly brings me back to the topic of Eagle, the medium cruiser which is slower than Champion, the heavy cruiser.

And the feeling of bewilderment is definitely mutual. Sometimes I wonder if we play the same game(which is a surprisingly valid question given the prevalence of mods) Or if you people playtest your ideas with AI at all.

Quote
Extra DP can be used on ANY unofficered ships, even more cruisers if you insist.

Yes? Who says otherwise? But the DP limit is 240 and officer limit is 8 or 10. Would you rather have officers, who are power multipliers, sitting in the largest ships you can get so that the largest amount of power is multiplied? Or put them all in Kites just so that... you have more "free DP" to bring in more Kites?

[Edit] Or let me put it this way: if in the next patch Eradicator was bumped from 20 to 25 DP I would STILL field eight of them as it's the only cruiser worth a damn.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 09:53:03 PM by BCS »
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7174
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2022, 10:40:02 PM »

...Hence the reckless personalities, so they'll stay in front and do their job...

If you want the ships to stay in front, I recommend putting in shorter ranged weaponry - HVD/Maulers pay a lot for their 1000 range and a reckless officer will try to close to point blank and waste it. Switching to 2 heavy autocannons gives a good dps and efficiency upgrade while also saving 6 OP; going from a mauler to a mortar is an even bigger savings in efficiency/dps/OP, but reduces the range to 700 which might be shorter than you want... though going all the way with that and using 2 heavy needlers + a heavy mortar takes your DPS from 275 kinetic/120 HE to 500 kinetic/220 HE without costing more OP. With that kind of weaponry you don't need a reckless officer, aggressive will do (if you want to go reckless, I recommend an SO/HMG/Heavy Blaster build). Depending on the enemy 700 base range might be enough.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2022, 11:42:05 PM »

And the feeling of bewilderment is definitely mutual. Sometimes I wonder if we play the same game(which is a surprisingly valid question given the prevalence of mods) Or if you people playtest your ideas with AI at all.
Sorry if it seems like I'm talking from some sort of a high ground but you're asking people who play this game for many years, fine tuning their builds and arguing here about everything, if they test different loadouts with AI... We've had literal AI tournaments (still have) where a bunch of players would send their fleets and then fight each other. Sure someone is always going to say something dumb but it's a bit out of place to tell the veterans "are we playing the same game here?".

I'd even agree with you and say speed is not the most important stat, but it's the clear second one. Without any speed, you're bound to get swarmed and kited to death. Would you still field 8 Eradicators if they had 40 speed?
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Igncom1

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1496
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2022, 11:56:16 PM »

Hell used to be that the Unstable Injector mod would be the main thing determining if a frigate won or lost a battle, let alone a whole fleet.
Logged
Sunders are the best ship in the game.

BCS

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2022, 01:01:15 AM »

I'd even agree with you and say speed is not the most important stat, but it's the clear second one. Without any speed, you're bound to get swarmed and kited to death. Would you still field 8 Eradicators if they had 40 speed?

I'd have to mod the Eradicators with 40 speed and test it. Getting swarmed can also be prevented(or should I say negated) with high enough DPS so that you kill/force to retreat enemies quicker and/or high enough tank. As for kiting, that requires not only higher speed but also longer range and AI ships don't come with Integrated Targeting Unit like player ships do. Faster but lower range ship wuld just lead to a stalemate until the AI "kites" you into a corner.
Logged

Drazan

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2022, 02:44:20 AM »

Give it 70 base speed and Active Flare Launcher
/thread

100% agree. Just dont forget to boost manuverability as well :D
Logged

ohama

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2022, 06:27:12 AM »

Quote
Please put giant images in spoiler tags, thanks! (Or crop to just the relevant section of the screenshot. Or both! Both is good.)
This makes me wish the game had an "export fit to clipboard" function that's also readable. Like in EVE online.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 18