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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 21983 times)

smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2022, 07:16:59 AM »

It really is the medium energy slots that are the problem here. Everything else about this ship makes it the most generalist cruiser to ever exist, which is a perfectly valid role. The medium energy slots just let it down. If you look at every single one of the medium energies, the problem is as clear as day.

Out of the 8 options, half are support weapons, two are SO weapons, and two just plain suck. There is no middle of the road option.

The problem isn't with the Eagle, it is with medium energy, and with the energy vs ballistic split as a whole.
My solution: Either make the pulse laser not cheapo garbage, or to add a general-purpose weapon. A mini-Milojnir (without EMP) might be a good option.
Which brings us to the elephant in the room: How do you make a medium sized weapon generally strong without making a hi-tech hull overpowered in the process? Because you can't let a hi-tech hull do high damage without a) making it exposed in short range; or b) making it opportunistic, thus only reliably dangerous in player's hands. Sunder and Champion solve this issue by having a system that boosts their energy power.

I wonder, how would you design a system based around energy weapons in way that would make sense on Eagle? Would it even be worth the effort? Because if done wrong, it would either start a red queen's race between Champion and Eagle, or step on the niches currently filled by hi-tech cruisers.
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Salter

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2022, 07:28:04 AM »

I dont think cross-pollination between the tech niche's is that bad. We can already see similar cruiser roles between ships like the Apogee & Champion, who serve as anchors, or Eradicator & Fury/Aurora which are fast assault cruisers.

The eagle is just a generalist cruiser with nothing in a similar class and role to compare it against.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 07:31:27 AM by Salter »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2022, 07:36:05 AM »

I tend to agree with the OP, the design is fighting against itself.

I'll go step farther and make the claim the Eagle doesn't actually have a ship system.  It has a ship disadvantage which is active 50% or more of the time (the time when manuevering jets is off).  Falcon has been bumped to speed 80 at this point, and has the same weapon combination as the Eagle, albeit with all the other stats and mounts at roughly 2/3 the count.

And speaking of pure pedantry, Eagle should cost 21 DP because it's 133% of a Falcon which is 14 DP :)

I'd argue Eagle should only cost 21 DP (150% of a Falcon) if it has the roughly the same speed as a Falcon.  Otherwise, there's a huge effectiveness malus on those guns and shields due to inability to position them where you need them as well as you can on a Falcon.

The fundamental game or ship design question I have is why doesn't the Aurora have a speed of 55 or 60 compared to the Fury's 90, in the same proportion as Eagle to Falcon?  It is also roughly 50% bigger in terms of weapon mounts, just like the Eagle to the Falcon.  What about the Eagle means a Falcon should be speed 80, 105 on average, while the Eagle sits at 50, 75 on average?  Clearly if the weapon package is designed for that speed (i.e. Aurora/Fury) its OK to have a cruiser go that fast.  If the Falcon isn't considered overly strong at speed 80 right now with it's medium ballistic + medium energy mount setup, can someone explain why the Eagle would be overly strong at speed 70 or even 75?

Can some one point out an advantage to me that the Eagle has over the Falcon in a campaign/fleet combat setting that demands such a huge speed disparity?  Is it the 250 extra armor?  But you have to go through Falcon armor 3 times compared to going through Eagle armor twice assuming same DP expenditures.

For example, do 3 Falcons really get in each other's way that much more than 2 Eagles?  Isn't the fact that you have 3 ships in general better, with total base flux capacity (3*7000 =21,000 compared to 2*11,000 = 22,000) and base flux dissipation (3*400=1200 vs 2*600=1200) being virtually the same?  Even OP wise, you're looking at 375 versus 310, with 50% more cost for hullmods in some sense.  If you spend less than 65 OP on hull mods on each Falcon and Eagle, then the Falcons even come out ahead in OP.  I was under the impression, PVP tournaments typically show that more cheaper ships are favored over fewer more expensive (in DP) ships, since it allows more of them to fall back and vent while pressure is consistently put on.

It just seems like the logic goes, it's bigger, so thus it must be slower.  Which from a game balance point of view due to venting and shield flux mechanics, doesn't seem to quite hold up if everything else is in the same proportion.

Converted hangar Xyphos. Even of Eagle it's better than using ship-mounted Ion Beams, they have atrocious stats.
Alex on his way to nerf Xyphos again because people refuse to use the god awful Ion beams  8)

I know you're being a bit silly, but I'd argue Ion Beams are OK to good actually.  Base range 1000 ion damage which wants to be used on armor/hull, and has shield piercing at high hard flux.  It typically has more impact than a Gravition beam on a fight, and so a higher flux cost I think is warranted.  Xyphos just happen to be even better (shoots over allies, PD that doesn't go down when overloaded, no flux cost, can be mounted on any ship of destroyer size and bigger, despite mount types).  Doesn't help that Xyphos are the only real range 0 support fighter (Mining pods are just regenerating armor).

It really is the medium energy slots that are the problem here. Everything else about this ship makes it the most generalist cruiser to ever exist, which is a perfectly valid role. The medium energy slots just let it down. If you look at every single one of the medium energies, the problem is as clear as day.

Which brings us to the elephant in the room: How do you make a medium sized weapon generally strong without making a hi-tech hull overpowered in the process?

Don't forget the 5 small energy mounts as well on the Eagle.  If those were kinetics, we wouldn't be having this discussion, since it'd be a Pirate Eradicator with energy mediums instead of 3 small missiles.

Essentially, the only option I see if you buff beams.  Currently, high tech beam ships are considered sub-par anyways, so if you buff beams up, that potentially opens up more support styles for high tech ships instead of dash in/dash out burst DPS builds.  We've just had a thread about Furies (and Auroras) complaining all the sensible builds use heavy blasters and sabots.  Not a single Graviton beam or tactical laser to be seen in those loadouts.

I think Alex was trying to do something along those lines with the high scatter amplifier, make beams better, but that was just moving the beam weapons into the weapon space already occupied by Heavy Blasters, Pulse Lasers, and IR pulse lasers.  Make them good enough and you ditch the blaster/pulse weapons.  Make them too weak and you ask what's the point?  And with a hull mod, its not like you can tweak the effect for each individual beam type weapon (let alone mods).

Essentially, you need to double down on beams being reasonable support weapons.  One way you can do that is add additional perks, as opposed to raw damage, to beam weapons either inherently or via hullmod (like Advanced Optics).  You'd think weapons with ranges of 1000+ITU+200 would be good, yet I don't see long range beam spam fleets being espoused as the greatest thing ever.

I did like the idea of changing high scatter amplifier to another support beam hullmod instead of a hullmod which turns support beams into weapons which already kind of exist.  Amusingly, Eagle can fit more beams, with more overlap, than a Fury can, at the soon to be same DP cost.  A hullmod that made beams pass through allies (like the Paladin system) would turn Eagles (and Falcons) into the premier anti-fighter/long range anti-missile ships and give them an interesting cruiser escort role (along with Furies and Auroras).  Probably would also want to throw on +10% beam damage or something given it doesn't actually help a solo ship, or even a small fleet.

Right now, I consider carriers, missile ships, and destroyers with converted hangar Xyphos to be the best escorts, since they can actually assist the fight in front of their escort while sitting behind it.  Also, a destroyer pack with Xyphos has excellent support coverage against fighters and missiles.
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smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2022, 07:46:31 AM »

I dont think cross-pollination between the tech niche's is that bad. We can already see similar cruiser rolls between ships like the Apogee & Champion, who serve as anchors, or Eradicator & Fury/Aurora which are fast assault cruisers.

The eagle is just a generalist cruiser with nothing in a similar class and role to compare it against.
The thing is, Eagle is probably the least likely one to cross with hi-tech in a healthy way. It's slow and not particularly spiky. Falcon has the speed if not the bite, while Champion has the spikiness of a little Paragon. I'm of the opinion that Eagle should be its own thing, one that epitomizes midline. Midline's big thing is specialization, and what is the current midline lineup missing? The anchor. Midline does its damage on both the frontline and the backline, which means its anchor would just need to focus on the defenses. Which is why I suggested what I suggested: make it support well, or make it win flux wars in the middle of the battle as a generalist.

Essentially, you need to double down on beams being reasonable support weapons.  One way you can do that is add additional perks, as opposed to raw damage, to beam weapons either inherently or via hullmod (like Advanced Optics).  You'd think weapons with ranges of 1000+ITU+200 would be good, yet I don't see long range beam spam fleets being espoused as the greatest thing ever.

I did like the idea of changing high scatter amplifier to another support beam hullmod instead of a hullmod which turns support beams into weapons which already kind of exist.  Amusingly, Eagle can fit more beams, with more overlap, than a Fury can, at the soon to be same DP cost.  A hullmod that made beams pass through allies (like the Paladin system) would turn Eagles (and Falcons) into the premier anti-fighter/long range anti-missile ships and give them an interesting cruiser escort role (along with Furies and Auroras).  Probably would also want to throw on +10% beam damage or something given it doesn't actually help a solo ship, or even a small fleet.
I can agree with that. It would support the... support niche of the current medium energy wielders without making any of them overpowered. It also feeds nicely into my idea of Eagle being chiefly a support hull xD
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Amoebka

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2022, 07:49:01 AM »

Thankfully we're getting 2 new medium energy weapons next patch (although harder to acquire).
One of them is a niche support beam and the other is overpriced inefficient SO bait. Medium energy is indeed not allowed to be good because high-tech exists.
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Salter

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2022, 07:58:39 AM »

The thing is, Eagle is probably the least likely one to cross with hi-tech in a healthy way. It's slow and not particularly spiky. Falcon has the speed if not the bite, while Champion has the spikiness of a little Paragon. I'm of the opinion that Eagle should be its own thing, one that epitomizes midline. Midline's big thing is specialization, and what is the current midline lineup missing? The anchor. Midline does its damage on both the frontline and the backline, which means its anchor would just need to focus on the defenses. Which is why I suggested what I suggested: make it support well, or make it win flux wars in the middle of the battle as a generalist.

We can already see an example of a high-tech cruiser with generalist functions anyways if you look at the remnant and they perform so-so without an AI officer. Thats not to say it should be done, but we have a working example of it, so its not unreasonable to think there could be a smooth transition.

I dont think the eagle should be tanky. That would defeat the purpose of it being a generalist cruiser, which is not supposed to have any strong traits other than that its a generalist. Giving it a fancy new subsystem, upgrading its armor and so on would be against the entire point. About the only idea I could give would be to give it a fighter bay and some OP to mount a fighter wing for free, so it can field a wing of fighters like Thunder's, which would allow it to engage any variety of targets and be able to recall back to defend itself.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 08:12:26 AM by Salter »
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BCS

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2022, 08:28:56 AM »

Which brings us to the elephant in the room: How do you make a medium sized weapon generally strong without making a hi-tech hull overpowered in the process?

They wouldn't be overpowered because of how few medium slots high-tech ships get. Fury has 1.5, Aurora has 2.5 because the fourth one is pointing backwards so it's practically missile exclusive. High-tech ships are already designed with medium energy weapons being stronger than ballistic equivalents in mind - except they're not stronger outside of in-your-face Safety Overrides builds.

Is there a joke somewhere here that I don't get? Otherwise what you just said is pure nonsense, no one is running precisely 8 cruisers and nothing else in their fleets.

Even with 25 DP per cruiser eight cruisers leaves you with 40 DP left and at that point all you need is something to quickly take two points(assuming closest is taken by the cruisers) to get everything on the field.
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Amoebka

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2022, 08:33:01 AM »

They wouldn't be overpowered because of how few medium slots high-tech ships get. Fury has 1.5, Aurora has 2.5 because the fourth one is pointing backwards so it's practically missile exclusive. High-tech ships are already designed with medium energy weapons being stronger than ballistic equivalents in mind - except they're not stronger outside of in-your-face Safety Overrides builds.
It's the opposite. High-tech ships get better base flux stats to compensate for their weapons being less efficient, and higher base speeds to compensate for shorter ranges.

Even with 25 DP per cruiser eight cruisers leaves you with 40 DP left and at that point all you need is something to quickly take two points(assuming closest is taken by the cruisers) to get everything on the field.
There's a very big difference between fielding 8 cruisers + 40 dp of escorts and fielding 8 cruisers + 80 dp of escorts. DP is one of the most important metrics of gauging ship strength. You are effectively comparing power/DP ratios.
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smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2022, 08:46:23 AM »

I dont think the eagle should be tanky. That would defeat the purpose of it being a generalist cruiser, which is not supposed to have any strong traits other than that its a generalist. Giving it a fancy new subsystem, upgrading its armor and so on would be against the entire point. About the only idea I could give would be to give it a fighter bay and some OP to mount a fighter wing for free, so it can field a wing of fighters like Thunder's, which would allow it to engage any variety of targets and be able to recall back to defend itself.
I didn't mean it should be tanky. A ship can defend itself with mobility and disarming the foe as well. Eagle's mobility system, viable supportive medium energy weapons and even a fighter bay are all options to be tried before shields or armor changes are considered.

Btw a nitpick: Subsystem is a component of a ship, like a hinge to a door or a transmission to a car. I believe you meant a (fancy new) ship system ^^
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Salter

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2022, 09:11:30 AM »

Btw a nitpick: Subsystem is a component of a ship, like a hinge to a door or a transmission to a car. I believe you meant a (fancy new) ship system ^^

That is what I meant. Dont worry, its just a little detail.

I think the long-range support options are fine as-is. Its a ship you use to harass the flanks and punch down frigates and the like. Having to exist in a tactical vacuum where your enemies and options can change make it a very good ship for campaign, though not so helpful when you gotta knock down a station.
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BCS

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2022, 09:23:59 AM »

It's the opposite. High-tech ships get better base flux stats to compensate for their weapons being less efficient, and higher base speeds to compensate for shorter ranges.

They have higher flux dissipation but also have higher shield upkeep. The end result is usually same amount of free flux as midlines. Fury has 420 free flux, Eagle has 390. Where's the big advantage that lets Fury use all those flux-hungry weapons?

As for speed, that only matters when you pilot a ship 1v1 in Simulation. Even AI in Simulation(also 1v1) cannot properly take advantage of speed because it's just too timid. And in a full fleet battle, well, you can get in closer as quick as you want, it just means you're going to get shot at quicker and have to retreat quicker.

There's a very big difference between fielding 8 cruisers + 40 dp of escorts and fielding 8 cruisers + 80 dp of escorts.

Yes, the difference in how many escorts you'll lose because you can't babysit all of them. Once battles get big enough to start spawning objectives anything smaller than a cruiser becomes a liability(barring obvious exceptions like the Monitor)
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Amoebka

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2022, 09:39:45 AM »

They have higher flux dissipation but also have higher shield upkeep. The end result is usually same amount of free flux as midlines. Fury has 420 free flux, Eagle has 390. Where's the big advantage that lets Fury use all those flux-hungry weapons?
You've just given the counterexample yourself. Eagle has higher shield upkeep relative to dissipation. Fury used to be 15 DP, which is why the stats are on the lower side. Most people agree it was overnerfed when pushed to 20 dp.

As for speed, that only matters when you pilot a ship 1v1 in Simulation. Even AI in Simulation(also 1v1) cannot properly take advantage of speed because it's just too timid.

Yes, the difference in how many escorts you'll lose because you can't babysit all of them. Once battles get big enough to start spawning objectives anything smaller than a cruiser becomes a liability(barring obvious exceptions like the Monitor)

I don't want to sound unkind, but most of your statements are the opposite of what is considered common sense among the experienced players. Speed is a very (if not the most) important stat. Getting closer quick means less time tanking damage without being able to trade back. Extra DP can be used on ANY unofficered ships, even more cruisers if you insist.
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ForestFighters

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2022, 09:56:29 AM »

I think the long-range support options are fine as-is. Its a ship you use to harass the flanks and punch down frigates and the like. Having to exist in a tactical vacuum where your enemies and options can change make it a very good ship for campaign, though not so helpful when you gotta knock down a station.

The Eagle is decent at that role, but the Falcon exists. Yeah it loses two slots, but it still has plenty to bully frigates and destroyers. And it is MUCH quicker than the Eagle, meaning it can do much better in that role. It is also cheaper.

If the Falcon didn’t exist, pushing the Eagle into a “punch-down” support role would probably work, but the Falcon does exist. If they both sit in the same role one will end up being objectively better than the other because they are so similar.
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TaLaR

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2022, 09:59:05 AM »

Maybe there should be a character skill and/or mid-tech hullmod (possibly built-in) that makes energy + ballistic combo more viable? Maybe specifically beams + ballistic. Because as skills and mods exist right now, you want a ship to specialize in either ballistics (any range) or short to medium range energy weapons.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 10:01:23 AM by TaLaR »
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Ahueh

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2022, 10:36:58 AM »


Essentially, you need to double down on beams being reasonable support weapons.  One way you can do that is add additional perks, as opposed to raw damage, to beam weapons either inherently or via hullmod (like Advanced Optics).  You'd think weapons with ranges of 1000+ITU+200 would be good, yet I don't see long range beam spam fleets being espoused as the greatest thing ever.


I think this is pretty reasonable. Reading your post inspired me to try something when I get home - a player piloted full support role Eagle. If you mounted 3 ion beams, a handful of point defense (and maybe a HVD?) on an Eagle it could be a reasonable support ship. Disable the weapons/engines of whatever enemy happens to be high flux, and immediately issue kill orders while it's disabled. Probably would be useless in the hands of the AI (unless as you said, it's able to sit behind the line and safely beam away) because it would never be in position or target the right things.
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