Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]

Author Topic: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)  (Read 4562 times)

BigBrainEnergy

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 315
    • View Profile
Re: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2022, 12:17:10 AM »

Heavily disagree that other cruisers are just worse than Eradicator. Also with your first example, the Onslaught can just burn in and kill the Eradicator before it has a chance to run away, seen it happen many times. The only cruisers that are currently not up to par imo are Eagle (got a lot of attention, Alex is probably buffing it) and Fury. Gryphon, Apogee, Heron, Mora, Champion, Dominator are all fantastic cruisers that are well worth their cost. None of them need any buffs because someone had a silly thought that the Eradicator outshines them all.

Also if you're that stuck on comparing ships based on Remnant performance, then Apogee, Gryphon and Champion are all better than Eradicator simply because they can mount Squalls, along with the supporting arsenal.
I think at one point I said the eradicator should be bumped up to 22 dp but honestly when you line it up against other cruisers it seems fine where it is. Now we just have to figure out what to do with the fury, although it'd probably be a similar case to the eagle where you just drop it by 2 dp and then look at fine tuning it from there.
Logged
TL;DR deez nuts

smithney

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
  • Internetian pleb
    • View Profile
Re: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2022, 01:08:19 AM »

Heavily disagree that other cruisers are just worse than Eradicator. Also with your first example, the Onslaught can just burn in and kill the Eradicator before it has a chance to run away, seen it happen many times. The only cruisers that are currently not up to par imo are Eagle (got a lot of attention, Alex is probably buffing it) and Fury. Gryphon, Apogee, Heron, Mora, Champion, Dominator are all fantastic cruisers that are well worth their cost. None of them need any buffs because someone had a silly thought that the Eradicator outshines them all.
I think the sentiment that Eradicator is out of line boils down to two things. First, it is a generalist, meaning that if it actually is good, it runs the risk of being perceived as the only ship necessary because it can do the same thing as a specialist well enough. Second, if a player doesn't actually test the ship's performance against the alternatives, they can end up with the conclusion mentioned above without it actually being the truth. I must admit I fell into this pitfall as well. In my defence, Eradicator actually is strong this patch, it just isn't out of line. We can easily see in Eagle's case what happens to a generalist in the opposite case.

Afaik, there are some approaches the dev can take to prevent this thing from happening. The radical is that you don't design generalists for your roster. One of the moderate ones is that you make the generalist a jack-of-all-trades that's easy to obtain and fun to use, but strictly inferior to specialists in niche cases (which tend to be less fun overall, but don't overstay their welcome because you don't use them often), in the case of multiple generalists you make sure each has a different "special" countermeasure. Another moderate approach is to make sure the generalist always relies on specialists to be useful and vice versa, and if there are multiple generalists, they each act as an enabler to a different set of strategies. I was about to say that I think Alex is using the second approach, but since I remembered his comments about Eagle, I think he's going for the third approach next patch.
Logged

BCS

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2022, 04:40:36 AM »

Also with your first example, the Onslaught can just burn in and kill the Eradicator before it has a chance to run away, seen it happen many times.

1v1 yes(because AI can't flank) But not with numerical advantage which the Eradicators should have in a fleet fight. Then the Onslaught will just switch to another Eradicator(or any other ship nearby) the moment the one it was targeting retreats.

Quote
Also if you're that stuck on comparing ships based on Remnant performance, then Apogee, Gryphon and Champion are all better than Eradicator simply because they can mount Squalls, along with the supporting arsenal.

None of these ships can chase down a Brilliant and none of these ships can run away from a 5x Autopulse Laser Radiant.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 04:42:13 AM by BCS »
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
    • View Profile
Re: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)
« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2022, 04:57:27 AM »

None of these ships can chase down a Brilliant and none of these ships can run away from a 5x Autopulse Laser Radiant.
All of those ships have 60 top speed, same as Brilliant. Having 10 more speed doesn't suddenly make an easy peasy fight since Eradicator lacks the defense of other ships.

And definitely no, it can't run away from a Radiant, stop saying nonsense.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

BCS

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2022, 08:46:18 AM »

16% faster makes a pretty big difference, yes.

Eradicator has adequate shields with Hardened Shields, it also has armor almost equal to the Champion.

And yes, it can outrun a Radiant, at least with +20% Nav rating and Helmsmanship which are not exactly hard bonuses to get.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3657
    • View Profile
Re: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2022, 09:04:04 AM »

This is a minor point, but you're going to get more shield durability on Eradicator with Hardened Shields' worth of caps, instead of the hullmod itself. Which obviously isn't relevant, if HS is built-in...

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1652
    • View Profile
Re: How would you go about nerfing Eradicator (if needed)
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2022, 11:06:56 AM »

Therefore, assuming the square law holds, using a linear measure like DP to balance the strength of ships doesn't work. Say for example that the Dominator at 25 DP is 25% stronger than the Eradicators at 20 DP. But for every 4 Dominators (100 DP) you can field not 4 but 5 Eradicators (5x20 DP = 100 DP). And 5 Eradicators are 1.25^2 = 1.56x as strong as 4 Eradicators

Only if DP is linear and not log linear. Which is probably is…

Though probably not quite as high as base 2.

Anyway there are other considerations, namely density. And the DP construction is pretty decent as a slightly better than linear construction but less than log 2 in this sense because this conserves the granularity in power scaling

That is. If your fleet is 10 ships wide you can add frigates and destroyers. Until such a point as your fleet is 20 ships wide and still tend to be getting the most lower per DP. And then you need to start needing to upgrade your frigates and destroyers into cruisers.

If DP were linear in log2 then you would find that upgrading to the biggest ships immediately gave you the most power and you would end up skipping the portion of the game in which frigates were powerful.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]