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Author Topic: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread  (Read 21499 times)

Serenitis

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Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« on: July 26, 2022, 01:06:06 AM »

Prompted by this:
At this point I feel like I should make yet another new thread, but for Eagle. Then again I'd surely be detected by the system as a bot or something.

Caveat: I am incredibly biased. I do not like the Eagle. Like, at all.

--

So, Eagle thread. Feel free to try and convince me (or anyone really) the Eagle is cool and good.
What's my beef with the Eagle anyway?

Well, it's not that the Eagle is specifically bad per se, it's more that it's just not good. It doesn't seem to have anything it can do that another ship cannot do better.
It has many attributes, some of them are even fairly good. In a vacuum.
However, unlike any other ship in the game Eagle has all it's attributes conflict with each other in what is a perfect storm of disappointment and mediocrity.
It's the exemplar of Jack of no trades, master of none, Eagle just is.

Eagle has a very underwhelming speed. But it also has a mobility system. Cool!
Unfortunately, even with this system active it is not fast enough to chase or run away from things.

It's weapons are... Confused tbh.
Short-ranged energy weapons are mounted towards the back of the ship, away from targets.

While long-ranged ballistic weapons are mounted in the nose, and fixed so they cannot be aimed without turning the whole ship.
Since it's a cuiser, Eagle's turn rate is not stellar. But it has a mobilty system that fixes that!
Neat. But that system can't be active all the time, so Eagle spends a significant amount of time not being able to use arguably its most useful weapons.
Cool.

Missiles. Eagle has 2x small missile mounts. Which for a cruiser is effectively zero.
Eagle cannot meaningfully do flux-free burst damage at all.
Which is huge. And not in a good way.

In order to use all it's weapons Eagle needs to not only face it's target, but stay within range of it's gimped energy guns set far back on the hull.
Which means that in order to do any damage to anything Eagle must always create flux close to the enemy.
So it's always getting flux built on it from 2 sources.
And since it cannot rely on missiles this means it cannot "reset" fights to create openings to attack/escape.

Eagle has decent armour. But not enough that you'd want to use it as a primary defence.
So it must rely on shields to defend itself.
When it gets attacked, it will raise shields. And hits will raise flux.
Okay. No different to any other ship, so what's the problem?

Here's where the confluence of compromise takes effect...
Eagle has to create flux to attack.
And create more to defend.
It can't reset the fight to vent.
It's armour isn't strong enough to use in place of shields.
And it can't run away.

So what happens is the Eagle will attack, and if it can't defeat it's target in that initial exchange, it will stall.
It will get fluxed out and start flickering it's shields while it's armour and hull gets pecked away.
And then it dies.
In every version of the game I have ever played, the AI Eagle behaves like this. I stopped using them entirely because they're so... Disappointing.
Even as an enemy AI Eagles are one of the easiest targets, simply because they can't cope with being shot at, can't meaningfully hurt you beyond thier opening volley, and can't run away.

Even in a fleet setting where most of these issues are mitigated to some degree, Eagle is a consistent underperformer because it just cannot get damage onto targets fast enough to be worth the effort of fielding it.
I will take any other cruiser (and a few destroyers) in preference to Eagle any day of any week.
In most situations I'll take a pile of supplies and fuel in preference to Eagle :P

Some (maybe most) other ships in the game have one or more of these "issues".
But Eagle is the only one that has them all, and it suffers badly because of it.
And that is why I don't like the Eagle.

How can Eagle be improved?
More speed?
More missiles?
Less awkward gun layout?

Apparently this is important:
And please include in your OP that the deployment cost is currently 20 in the dev build. I think that's crucial for this type of discussion.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 01:29:51 AM by Serenitis »
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2022, 01:20:23 AM »

One role Eagle is really good at, which people seem to forget, is anti-fighter and PD duty. It's basically perfect for it with long range energy mounts where you can be sure it'll focus fighters because of the lower range. And ballistics being in hardpoints means it won't waste flux trying to shoot down fighters, but instead keep them on the main target. Eagle is also good at quickly projecting kinetic damage. 3 HVDs + 3 Gravitons is a neat support build where your other ships or yourself can come in to deal heavy damage.

I personally wouldn't touch the weapon layout much, like in a sense of a complete rework. The reason is very simple, the ship is unique and looks cool, I'd hate to see it become another generic cruiser. And I actually quite like the running theme of midline ships having only 2 small missiles across many ships. So the only thing I'd do with it is increase base speed a bit (5-10 idk), and increase maneuverability so that it can actually turn without the system. The niche for it would still be pretty narrow, but I really don't mind that. We don't need 10 line cruisers that are great in every single fleet setup.

I also don't see how you're having AI issues with it, it's one of the safest cruisers in the game unless you're fighting a fight you'll lose either way. Are you putting only close range weapons on it by any chance?

And please include in your OP that the deployment cost is currently 20 in the dev build. I think that's crucial for this type of discussion.
(yes yes Alex, I know anything can change in the meantime)

EDIT: My usual take: I'd pick an Eagle over Fury or Aurora in 90% of the situations if piloted by AI.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 01:23:02 AM by Grievous69 »
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TaLaR

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2022, 02:08:16 AM »

3 Graviton + 2/1 HVD + 1/2 Mauler for long range or 3 Graviton + 2/1 HNeedler + 1/2 HMortar for medium range. Either way there is little point to using anything but Gravitons in med energy slots, since this would make an overfluxed and slow short-ranged ship that AI can't use competently.

Though since current skills and mods like ballistic rangefinder encourage mono-specialization in either energy or ballistics, it's definitely weaker than it was in older versions.

Rotation speed is rarely an issue for aiming with hardpoints vs AI - only against frigates at short range when system is on cooldown.

Imo, it's still the safest vanilla cruiser to entrust to AI, though better range management could improve ship's performance A LOT.

Though I didn't play with Eradicators or Champions much. They might obsolete the Eagle for safe AI pick.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 03:23:54 AM by TaLaR »
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Amoebka

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2022, 03:17:10 AM »

How can Eagle be improved?
More speed?
More missiles?
Less awkward gun layout?
The latter two. It needs a medium missile to punch up, and it needs a ballistic turret to deal with flankers. My suggestion is to change the middle ballistic hardpoint for a medium missile hardpoint, and then change the middle medium energy turret for a medium ballistic turret. This would actually turn the ship into a generalist - capable of doing everything, but not amazing at any of it. Also seems like a cool flavor thing - a midline cruiser that has a little bit of everything.
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SCC

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2022, 03:18:00 AM »

I would say Eagle has stayed in place, while the game at large has moved forward.
Speed: Eagle's average speed is something like 70? Champion has better stats and is speed 60, Eradicator is IMO also better in general and is speed 70. Eagle is less dangerous than either of them, but it isn't actually any faster.
I haven't found Eagle to be a frail cruiser, but it certainly isn't a dangerous one either. It takes some time to catch up to them, especially if they're built for the range, but range is the majority of what they have. And Champion and Eradicator can be built to outrange other ships, too. Neither of the two can have an Ion Beam without sacrifices, so I guess that's something going for Eagle?
And to add insult to the injury, Eradicator is less of a commitment than Eagle (being a burn level 9 cruiser), too.

TaLaR

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2022, 03:20:59 AM »

The latter two. It needs a medium missile to punch up, and it needs a ballistic turret to deal with flankers. My suggestion is to change the middle ballistic hardpoint for a medium missile hardpoint, and then change the middle medium energy turret for a medium ballistic turret. This would actually turn the ship into a generalist - capable of doing everything, but not amazing at any of it. Also seems like a cool flavor thing - a midline cruiser that has a little bit of everything.

That's a nerf for how I use them. AI ship's main job in my fleet is distraction, stalling and picking off easy targets. I'll do all the heavy lifting myself.

Missile builds have terrible endurance for long battles against large fleets, so I don't use them.
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Amoebka

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2022, 03:22:15 AM »

Neither of the two can have an Ion Beam without sacrifices, so I guess that's something going for Eagle?
Converted hangar Xyphos. Even of Eagle it's better than using ship-mounted Ion Beams, they have atrocious stats.

That's a nerf for how I use them. AI ship's main job in my fleet is distraction, stalling and picking off easy targets. I'll do all the heavy lifting myself.

Missile builds have terrible endurance for long battles against large fleets, so I don't use them.
Any change that isn't a flat numerical is going to nerf some application while improving others. The missile hardpoint can even be a synergy if you insist, to keep the 3-3 possible. I don't think having 5 medium weapon mounts is a missile build with no endurance either.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 03:35:29 AM by Amoebka »
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2022, 03:24:33 AM »

Converted hangar Xyphos. Even of Eagle it's better than using ship-mounted Ion Beams, they have atrocious stats.
Alex on his way to nerf Xyphos again because people refuse to use the god awful Ion beams  8)
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BCS

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2022, 06:17:43 AM »

How can Eagle be improved?

By having a major balance pass on energy weapons, at least medium ones, because currently they come in two flavours:

1. Short range with good damage but too flux hungry to use on anything but Safety Overrides builds
2. Long range beams which are purely support in nature(to put it politely. To put it less politely they're borderline useless)

I thought about swapping ballistic and energy mounts before. That fixes problem 2, but then you run into problem 1. What are you going to put in front energy mounts of your new and improved Eagle? Even three Pulse Cannons, the most "reasonable" of short-ranged energy weapons, are 300 flux. This means three Pulse Cannons alone - without any other weapons - already overflux the ship, and that is with 35 Vents.

And please include in your OP that the deployment cost is currently 20 in the dev build. I think that's crucial for this type of discussion.

You have eight officers by default, max deployment is 240. 240 / 8 = 30, so any cruiser will fit if you want it to fit. Arguing about DP is almost purely academic even when comparing 20 and 25 DP ships, in case of 20 and 22 it's pure pedantry. And speaking of pure pedantry, Eagle should cost 21 DP because it's 133% of a Falcon which is 14 DP :)
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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2022, 06:28:13 AM »

And please include in your OP that the deployment cost is currently 20 in the dev build. I think that's crucial for this type of discussion.
You have eight officers by default, max deployment is 240. 240 / 8 = 30, so any cruiser will fit if you want it to fit. Arguing about DP is almost purely academic even when comparing 20 and 25 DP ships, in case of 20 and 22 it's pure pedantry. And speaking of pure pedantry, Eagle should cost 21 DP because it's 133% of a Falcon which is 14 DP :)
Is there a joke somewhere here that I don't get? Otherwise what you just said is pure nonsense, no one is running precisely 8 cruisers and nothing else in their fleets.
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SCC

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2022, 06:35:01 AM »

Not to mention there is the player character, too.

smithney

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2022, 06:53:18 AM »

You have eight officers by default, max deployment is 240. 240 / 8 = 30, so any cruiser will fit if you want it to fit. Arguing about DP is almost purely academic even when comparing 20 and 25 DP ships, in case of 20 and 22 it's pure pedantry. And speaking of pure pedantry, Eagle should cost 21 DP because it's 133% of a Falcon which is 14 DP :)
Is there a joke somewhere here that I don't get? Otherwise what you just said is pure nonsense, no one is running precisely 8 cruisers and nothing else in their fleets.
I think he's trying to say that when it comes outfitting your cruisers, 2 DP isn't going to make a difference between them, because most of the time you're going to field at most 8 of them + padding. In other words, the 2 DP are going to be only significant when talking about endgame fleets. In your defense, if one's fielding 3 Eagles in their field, they'll be able to squeeze one more Monitor in addition to the usual stuff next patch, which does make a difference.

I think a talk about energy weapons would be a better use of our time and attention than another Eagle thread, but I'll restate my opinion just for the record. Eagle is aesthetically very cool, both sprite and lore wise, and doesn't live to its potential at all. It got overshadowed by Champion as a line ship and didn't pick up any other niche. I would prefer Alex reworked it around its supportive abilities, but I wouldn't mind doubling down on its offense and make it a generalist again. Either way Eagle's current identity is that of a pretty yet toothless cruiser, frustrating anyone who's eager to try it out.
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Salter

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2022, 06:56:52 AM »

The eagle, for me anyways, is a focus/support fire ship. Mount something like Graviton Beams + an ion beam in the center, two hypervelocity drivers, a heavy mauler, some LRPD lasers and you can fit just about anything in the missile slot really. Its not really meant to take foes head on but to sneak around at the flank and have a field day helping roll up an enemy line or laying into the side of a larger ship your capital is engaging. I dont think that makes up for some of its weaknesses like the lack of decisive killing power or how exposed its unsupported flanks can be, but its an attribute shared by most ships who kite or flank around the enemy.

That's a nerf for how I use them. AI ship's main job in my fleet is distraction, stalling and picking off easy targets. I'll do all the heavy lifting myself.

Missile builds have terrible endurance for long battles against large fleets, so I don't use them.

Imo dedicated missile ships like the Gryphon tend to not run out easily, especially if you give em a missile officer who can just spam missiles the entire fight.

The problem really is there being too few missiles for the medium/small slots and the AI kind of just throws them whenever the enemy is 85% to shield pop to overflux them. That works if you are running sabots but not for the majority of other missiles and especially torpedo's which arent normally dropped when the enemy ships overfluxed.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 07:09:08 AM by Salter »
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ForestFighters

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2022, 06:57:09 AM »

It really is the medium energy slots that are the problem here. Everything else about this ship makes it the most generalist cruiser to ever exist, which is a perfectly valid role. The medium energy slots just let it down. If you look at every single one of the medium energies, the problem is as clear as day.

Graviton beam: Support "anti-shield" beam, just kind of ok.
Heavy blaster: WAYYY to flux heavy for the Eagle. Meant for SO.
Heavy burst laser: Point defense. Not ideal for half of your main armament.
Ion beam: Taser that does nothing against shields. Bringing one is decent, if there was anything to support it.
Ion Pulser: Ion beam but a bad short-range weapon. There is no point in bringing this on a non-SO ship.
Mining Blaster: lol no.
Phase lance: The other medium energy that does actual damage. Short ranged and very pricey.
Pulse laser: Just a weak really. If any weapon in this category was to get buffed, it would be this one.

Out of the 8 options, half are support weapons, two are SO weapons, and two just plain suck. There is no middle of the road option.

The problem isn't with the Eagle, it is with medium energy, and with the energy vs ballistic split as a whole.
My solution: Either make the pulse laser not cheapo garbage, or to add a general-purpose weapon. A mini-Milojnir (without EMP) might be a good option.



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Grievous69

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Re: Clipped Wings - An Eagle Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2022, 07:13:43 AM »

How is there nothing to support an Ion Beam, there's literally 3 ballistics lol. But the problem with Ion Beam is its flux cost.
Ion Pulser is great even for non-SO ships, Eagle is just a bad ship for it.
Pulse Laser was actually buffed recently to 1.0 flux efficiency. It has its uses, unfortunate part is that cruisers don't want it if they want to actually deal damage to other ships bigger than a Hammerhead.

Thankfully we're getting 2 new medium energy weapons next patch (although harder to acquire).
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