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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: The Pilgrim's Path  (Read 13803 times)

David

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The Pilgrim's Path
« on: July 19, 2022, 12:11:20 PM »

Blog post here.
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Timid

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2022, 12:38:57 PM »

I'm very excited to see this approach. I'm just wondering though...

Spoiler
Will the Knights of Ludd "faction" exist a-kin to the Lion's Guard or will they still be a part of the Luddic Church? Just used in a different context such as contact's reputation or a whole separate hidden rep we don't see.
based on
Quote
And yes, if you blow these fleets up, it’ll make the Knights really unhappy with you.
So would I still be able to visit Gilead since Gilead isn't technically controlled by the Knights of Ludd per say...

I'm thrilled to see that there is probably no "pope" (?) in-game wise and there are many shrines (or sects) that make up the Church's membership. This gives up much lore to build off for modded Luddic factions.
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David

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2022, 12:48:25 PM »

Spoiler
Will the Knights of Ludd "faction" exist a-kin to the Lion's Guard or will they still be a part of the Luddic Church?

I'm thrilled to see that there is probably no "pope" (?) in-game wise and there are many shrines (or sects) that make up the Church's membership. This gives up much lore to build off for modded Luddic factions.
[close]

Spoiler
Re. Space Pope: Right, yeah. My intent is for the Church's ruling body to be a sort of council, which... something will get into, at some point, probably.

Re. KoL vs. Church: Basically, the Knights are the militant branch of the Church. A separate reputation value is not, ah, something I have plans to work with when it comes to these groups.
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Igncom1

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2022, 01:04:21 PM »

Nice one!

Honestly the Luddites might seem totally at odds with science fiction and generally everything that a person, or player, might want. But from my own life as I have gotten older I find the ideals and concepts of not wanting to accept every little new bit of technology as fast as it can be made to be more and more alluring. Or perhaps I simply missed the train to the front?

Either way the dichotomies of the Church are RIGHT up my alleyway, especially considering the very real in-universe examples of rampant technological development biting humanity in the rear.

The philosophies posed by the various church factions will be very interesting to read!
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SpaceDrake

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2022, 01:26:36 PM »

Either way the dichotomies of the Church are RIGHT up my alleyway, especially considering the very real in-universe examples of rampant technological development biting humanity in the rear.

And there's also the fact that, looking at some of the technologies available to the player now that colony items are a thing, what we know of Ludd's teachings about "devouring God's creation" have a bit more bite to them. The Mantle Bore, for example, given that it raises planetary ore and organics productions by three units, or three powers, would in fact be capable of hollowing out a planet completely and collapsing it, albeit on a timescale longer than the game is (generally)assumed to run. So you benefit, but it is in fact destroying a whole planet. You are devouring God's creation.

But then, of course, you get around to the fact that abandoning much of this sort of thing would lend a lot more proportional power to terraformed or naturally-terran-climate worlds like Gilead, and how that'd just so happen to give the ruling bodies of worlds like that more influence and power...

Anyway, I already over-posted about some of this on Twitter, but needless to say I've been having a think about the Luddics for a bit myself (especially once David began hinting we'd see a lot more of them on Twitter some months back), and I really can't wait for them to get expanded on in the base game. It'll definitely influence how the mod scene approaches them! And I'm just dying to know how Mazalot Works™ in general. A Luddic-majority planet under the effective Kazeronian boot? The mind whirls at the possibilities...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 03:33:50 PM by SpaceDrake »
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2022, 01:47:59 PM »

I'm always fond of non-radical religious belief factions in settings like this.  These parts of human history and culture are never truly going to go away and the mainstream stuff is usually no better or worse than other aspects of humanity.  Religion is a means for people to find purpose in their lives and build a sense of community.  It's been that way for millennia.  Conservative religion in a universe gone mad with technology and an outright apocalypse would give hope to many many people.  I like to play a character who is amiable to that side of the Church.

I also always felt like it would be good for players to be able to work on fixing the major problems that each of the factions have from the inside, and quest chains for working with or joining that faction fit that bill very well.  This way each faction can become the best hope for the sector, with the player's influence.  In the case of the church, reigning in the most radical elements and cutting off the Path from backroom political support would make the faction very reasonable relative to everyone else in the sector.
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Yubbin

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2022, 02:08:24 PM »


And there's also the fact that, looking at some of the technologies available to the player now that colony items are a thing, what we know of Ludd's teachings about "devouring God's creation" have a bit more bite to them. The Mantle Bore, for example, given that it raises planetary ore and organics productions by three units, or three powers, would in fact be capable of hollowing out a planet completely and collapsing it, albeit on a timescale longer than the game is (generally)assumed to run. So you benefit, but it is in fact destroying a whole planet. You are devouring God's creation.

But then, of course, you get around to the fact that abandoning much of this sort of thing would lend a lot more proportional power to terraformed or naturally-terran-climate worlds like Gilead, and how that'd just so happen to give the ruling bodies of world like that more influence and power...


This is an amazing bit of world building I missed out on, great job to David for this! Also I like the way that this game's lore is going, which is more interactive and fun. Though I'm sure a lot of it would be interesting to me, It's pretty boring to read two or three massive paragraphs about a planet, instead of talking to the people there, or something more gamey.
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Aramoro

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2022, 03:14:39 PM »

me - bomb luddy planet, to get that +2 organic deposit
also me - here is a donation brother...

;D
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David

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2022, 04:43:42 PM »

Honestly the Luddites might seem totally at odds with science fiction and generally everything that a person, or player, might want. But from my own life as I have gotten older I find the ideals and concepts of not wanting to accept every little new bit of technology as fast as it can be made to be more and more alluring. Or perhaps I simply missed the train to the front?

Yeah, I hear you on all of that. I mean, I grew up reading a ton of science fiction, in the 90's, in Silicon Valley. Technology was obviously the best and would make everything the best! Hasn't quite panned out that way, so I really feel the critical side of all of that much more. (Another example: Kim Stanley Robinson's novel "Aurora" isn't what we want, but it might be what we need.)

But then, of course, you get around to the fact that abandoning much of this sort of thing would lend a lot more proportional power to terraformed or naturally-terran-climate worlds like Gilead, and how that'd just so happen to give the ruling bodies of worlds like that more influence and power...

*ruling bodies gain more power within bounds set by their own ideology* "Oh weird."

And I'm just dying to know how Mazalot Works™ in general. A Luddic-majority planet under the effective Kazeronian boot? The mind whirls at the possibilities...

Hmmmm! (Yeah, the League needs a lot of love as well. Don't worry- we know.)
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FooF

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2022, 07:47:17 PM »

I really enjoyed the blog post. I've always been fascinated by advanced civilizations and their relationship with religion especially ones where the ramifications of faith are really explored. The Hyperion Cantos did this pretty well, albeit a bit heavy-handed toward the end. What I can't stand are cardboard cutouts of current religious institutions just overlaid on top of futuristic societies. The "what" of religion is not nearly as important as the "why" and a lot of sci-fi/fantasy authors get lost in the former (or use it as a polemic) or fail to understand the latter.

What I appreciate about the Church in Starsector is that it's not the joke faction (that belongs to the Diktat and there was weeping and gnashing of teeth...:)) It's just a bunch of normal folks trying to make it and while there's a ruling polity and bureaucracy like everywhere else, they don't seem to be as caught up in the rat race. I'm glad I'll have more reason to interact with them now. I've avoided the Church for the most part purely for gamesmanship reasons: they don't have the ships I want, they don't really have an aesthetic that appeals to me, and I've always felt that they're just not major players. Brother Cotton is a very interesting figure though and I look forward to more interactions with him.

The Pilgrim's Path quest is interesting because while I don't expect the player character to drink the Kool-aid by the end, I'm cautiously optimistic that there is still a lesson to be learned from faith that will influence player's choices when they (inevitably) reach the moral event horizon. Strangely, the Church may be closer to the via media than any of the other factions with their hands on the plow but heads in the stars. Having grown up around some agrarian communities, there's a basic appreciation for things that grow and the changing of the seasons. It doesn't mean you eschew modern comforts but at least you have some perspective on the simpler life.

In my head canon, Ludd was right. The Domain's reach was beyond its grasp and the Collapse was as catastrophic as it was predictable. Ludd didn't need to be a literal prophet to see the writing on the wall but anyone butting against the status quo tends to get put down pretty hard by the system. I would absolutely *love* to see a return of Ludd, as I don't think too many sci-fi stories try to wrestle with the ramifications of the savior of faith returning as promised. Of course, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." Would the Church and the Path split? Would the Sector at large change in any meaningful way? Would Ludd's return, and of course, whatever revelation he brings even be accepted by the faithful (or by the skeptics)? Would his return be heralded with signs and wonders or would it come not as a bang, but a whimper?

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Wyvern

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2022, 08:51:23 PM »

Fascinating stuff. Though, I have to ask... "look out for cliffracers"?
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ForestFighters

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2022, 09:23:15 PM »

In my head canon, Ludd was right. The Domain's reach was beyond its grasp and the Collapse was as catastrophic as it was predictable. Ludd didn't need to be a literal prophet to see the writing on the wall but anyone butting against the status quo tends to get put down pretty hard by the system. I would absolutely *love* to see a return of Ludd, as I don't think too many sci-fi stories try to wrestle with the ramifications of the savior of faith returning as promised. Of course, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." Would the Church and the Path split? Would the Sector at large change in any meaningful way? Would Ludd's return, and of course, whatever revelation he brings even be accepted by the faithful (or by the skeptics)? Would his return be heralded with signs and wonders or would it come not as a bang, but a whimper?

Don't forget that Ludd could have been some shmuck who just so happened to be transported out of sector when an unrelated event caused the gates to collapse. His actual person is shrouded in myth, doctrine, and many different retellings. For all we know, he could have been basically anything. He could have been Jesus 2, or just a corrupt administrator or pirate being brought back for a proper trial.

Also, it has been 206 years, he is probably dead by now. Either he died of old age, was killed when the gates failed, or shot upon arrival to wherever he was going. Him coming back would make him either an AI or actual Jesus.

Someone claiming to be Ludd, or a reincarnation of him, or his brother/sister could be interesting, but not just a straight up "Ludd was objectively right and Jesus, and all the other factions are wrong." If Ludd himself came back, it could very easily turn into that.

At the end of the day, we will probably learn more about it once the final story quest is in the game, when we fully turn the gates back on. The Domain might actually be fine, we just don't know.
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Jackundor

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2022, 10:50:13 PM »

"And, naturally, for this encounter the Knights are an antagonist. Why? Because they’re sticklers for rules, for self discipline, for restraint, for acting piously. Basically nothing like the average player."
Chad
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Histidine

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2022, 01:30:17 AM »

Nice, maybe people will stop caricaturing the Luddics as "reee we hate good things" reactionaries... well, do it a little less, at least

I too loved the roast of the playerbase


One thing I've idly thought about re. Luddics is how different persons in the faith might react to meeting an AI character in a social context or similar (there's a few such characters in the modiverse, I wrote one of them). Could they hold a civil conversation with it? Would they be metaphorically warding off the demon every half-minute, or start hurling accusations of various evils? Would they try to destroy it immediately after, assuming they possessed the means to do so?
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Igncom1

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Re: The Pilgrim's Path
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2022, 01:37:55 AM »

Well in fairness the Path, which is 90% of a players interaction with the faith, really are apocalyptic reactionaries.
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