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Author Topic: [0.97a] Realistic Combat 2.0.4  (Read 281851 times)

Melanoc3tus II

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.2] Realistic Combat
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2022, 06:43:17 AM »

So far, the mod renders PD solutions utterly useless, at least in their intended role: the extended range causes all PD to engage anything within range, causing their magazines to deplete, and seems to have trouble tracking the drastically accelerated missiles. The targeting AI also seems to not account for the increased projectile velocity, causing turrets to fire their munitions into the ether. Also, the speed of the missiles seem to break hit registration: Hammer torpedoes fly so fast that they go right through their targets, and have the somewhat hilarious side-effect of spinning ships like a Shepherd when they go past ships at a certain angle.

In the meanwhile, is there a way to disable all the features other than the damage calculations? It would probably be best to test that aspect of the mod alone.

Yeah, this.
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silfidum

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.3] Realistic Combat
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2022, 07:27:51 AM »

Gotta say, this is fairly funny and turns the entire balance meta upside down.

Fighters and bomber wings are now quazy escorts that can't keep up with  their host nor target ships but often times can outrange some ships due to missile range buff. Also basically infinite missile spam with no way of killing them at that range.

Fast small ships can't hit small *** ever and their accuracy while strafing is very bad.

Overall while the huge range probably will make smaller ships way more useful it is kinda annoying to shoot at pixels and the pace of fights kinda ramp up due to more actor participating at a given engagement - it's fairly difficult to keep up with what is going on compared to vanilla. Especially figuring out who shoots whom and when.
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Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.3] Realistic Combat
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2022, 07:32:21 AM »

Speaking of weapons, some of mod ones seems not affected, like Jackall Slicers from DME, they are Composite slot Ballistic weapons, most of Composite or Hybrid weapons often have in description things like "count as Ballistic or Energy or Missile weapon for stat modifiers" I think you can use it to detect to which weapon type Hybrid or Composite weapon belongs.

Thanks, I've added a failover mode!

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Also interesting how mod chooses which weapon is autocannon and which not, most of mod minigun type weapons are now slow firing weapons.

I know not how to detect rotary autocannons but am surprised to learn that Realistic Combat rules instances of them in mods not to be autocannons because I presume their designers to have given them a Charge Time plus Refire Delay, or Burst Delay if their burst size exceeds 3, less than the cannon refire delay threshold of 0.6.  Would you please give me an example to test?

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Also missiles now are better, but too much maybe, Reapers accelerate almost immediately so you have no way to dodge them, missiles have super speed now, which makes them both hard to avoid and side-mounted missiles on your own ship sometimes can't hit target which is in front of ship due to overly high velocity. Also about config option, maybe add one which affect lifetime of missiles? For example if I want leave same acceleration of missiles but want to be sure what they will fly further.

I mean for ships larger than fighters to reliably dodge guided missiles only via such game-changing abilities as phase or teleportation but unguided missiles as they would a ballistic projectile that accelerates in-flight: I will release a patch that adds code to discriminate between guided and unguided missiles.  Moreover, the patch will also include code to discriminate between missiles and torpedoes, giving the former a greater maneuverability bonus than the latter.  Therefore, the Realistic Combat WeaponCategory.MISSILE will be divided into four new kinds of WeaponCategory:
  • GUIDED_MISSILE
  • UNGUIDED_MISSILE
  • GUIDED_TORPEDO
  • UNGUIDED_TORPEDO

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And another issue, autofiring weapons seems like they took wrong target leading, when ship moves sideways due to innertia. Its seems like problem with all "realistic" space speed mods,

Uh-oh, this isn't good.

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got one X4 mod,

I don't know what an X4 mod is.  Please, tell me.

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and there also auto firing weapons took wrong target lead because leading do not count inertia and sideway moving at all and its simply fires into wrong direction, I have Targeting Pip mod, its clearly seen what its in wrong direction.

Oh boy.  Is the Targeting Pip mod at least showing the right place to aim?

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Also how refireDelays section config works? What do I need to select if I want to try leave vanilla firerates for example.

I don't have a way to do that but could add a toggle.

Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.2] Realistic Combat
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2022, 07:38:12 AM »

This mod doesn't play nice with the missiles from Diable. They just schwoosh around their target in a massive swarm without ever actually impacting it.

edit: I think it's more than the missiles from diable

Diable is a good example though

Sounds like Realistic Combat has not given them quite enough maneuverability to hit their targets.  I may need to change the missile maneuverability adjustments to include a floor to prevent this behavior.

Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.2] Realistic Combat
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2022, 08:02:38 AM »

So far, the mod renders PD solutions utterly useless, at least in their intended role: the extended range causes all PD to engage anything within range, causing their magazines to deplete, and seems to have trouble tracking the drastically accelerated missiles.

Can you tell me more about what you mean by "anything within range"?  I ask because this problem is tricky to solve.  Every weapon has a field called AIHints, which can accept directions for their autofire behavior.  Three relevant hints exist: PD, PD_ONLY, and ANTI_FITR.  Weapons with the PD or ANTI_FTR hint without the PD_ONLY tag perhaps being meant for both point-defense and combat, I would hesitate to nerf their range because it would limit their anti-ship uses; whereas weapons with the PD_ONLY tag being meant only for point defense, I could restrict their range dramatically should they have limited ammo.

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The targeting AI also seems to not account for the increased projectile velocity, causing turrets to fire their munitions into the ether.

Should the AI be such a black box that I cannot fix this problem myself, I hope Alex would make it use the live values as expands the features whereby such mods as mine change data after loading.

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Also, the speed of the missiles seem to break hit registration: Hammer torpedoes fly so fast that they go right through their targets, and have the somewhat hilarious side-effect of spinning ships like a Shepherd when they go past ships at a certain angle.

Seems like the missile top speed needs a ceiling, then.

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In the meanwhile, is there a way to disable all the features other than the damage calculations? It would probably be best to test that aspect of the mod alone.

Not yet, but I could add toggles.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 07:00:33 PM by Liral »
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Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.2] Realistic Combat
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2022, 09:05:01 AM »

Somthing like advanced optics and energy weapon mastery are mostly useless, these stats should be changed accrodingly

Ok, I can fix advanced optics.  Energy weapon mastery is probably fixable too, but I just don't know how.

BreenBB

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.3] Realistic Combat
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2022, 10:36:00 AM »

I know not how to detect rotary autocannons but am surprised to learn that Realistic Combat rules instances of them in mods not to be autocannons because I presume their designers to have given them a Charge Time plus Refire Delay, or Burst Delay if their burst size exceeds 3, less than the cannon refire delay threshold of 0.6.  Would you please give me an example to test?

Hastling Minigun from SWP become slow firing cannon with this mod. ( https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18938.0 )

I think it will be very hard to properly rebalance weapons from other mods this way, I think its good idea maybe leave this one as total conversion (mod which is supposed to run without other Ship and Weapon packs and factions like Archean Order), and make light-weight version of this mod only with new damage model but leave weapon firerate and range unchanged. Another good idea, maybe add .csv file to forcibly change weapon type from regular cannon to autocannon.

Also regarding of mods, some scripted weapons got broken by mod.

I don't know what an X4 mod is.  Please, tell me.

X4 Foundations, 3d space simulator game. It had simmilar mod with "realistic" flight, and it was very hard to hit someone with it.

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Oh boy.  Is the Targeting Pip mod at least showing the right place to aim?

No, Pip shows same wrong position where AI trying to fire.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 10:43:49 AM by BreenBB »
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General Vash

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.4] Realistic Combat
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2022, 11:28:10 AM »

I also noticed the issue where fighters are now slower than the carrier in some cases - this is an issue with realism in space combat because there isn't any realistic reason to use fighters in zero-g. There is no upper limit on speed for space vessels, so size isn't a factor in speed. The only reason to use fighters would be that a smaller mass is easier to accelerate and a smaller profile is harder to target, but with laser point defence and infinite sub-light fuel these benefits are made moot. Bigger is always better in space, using realistic flight models. Only maneuverability could be claimed as a benefit of a fighter, but given their fragility and the range of all weapon systems maneuverability doesn't really matter.

Additionally the problem of calculating the proper leading pip for ballistic weapons fired between two ships which each have their own full physics simulated in two dimensions is quite difficult, to put it lightly. An easier problem than three dimensions (to the guy who mentioned the X4 mod), but not really by a whole lot. Even with approximated inertia, ships in the vanilla game sometimes don't lead their target properly. Of course, if either ship adjusts their acceleration even minutely while at great distance, the entire calculation needs to be repeated. The accuracy of ballistic weapons in space combat falls to near zero in any realistic simulation, so this is pretty much as one would expect. Unless the muzzle velocity of the ballistic weapon is extremely high, good luck trying to hit a space ship that is executing evasive maneuvers. The problem with high muzzle velocity is of course the recoil which results from the shot, which goes up in proportion to the kinetic energy of the projectile, but to have any kind of accuracy you'd want to have the projectile travel as fast as conceivably possible.
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Kakroom

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.3] Realistic Combat
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2022, 12:36:49 PM »


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Also missiles now are better, but too much maybe, Reapers accelerate almost immediately so you have no way to dodge them, missiles have super speed now, which makes them both hard to avoid and side-mounted missiles on your own ship sometimes can't hit target which is in front of ship due to overly high velocity. Also about config option, maybe add one which affect lifetime of missiles? For example if I want leave same acceleration of missiles but want to be sure what they will fly further.

I mean for ships larger than fighters to reliably dodge guided missiles only via such game-changing abilities as phase or teleportation but unguided missiles as they would a ballistic projectile that accelerates in-flight: I will release a patch that adds code to discriminate between guided and unguided missiles.  Moreover, the patch will also include code to discriminate between missiles and torpedoes, giving the former a greater maneuverability bonus than the latter.  Therefore, the Realistic Combat WeaponCategory.MISSILE will be divided into four new kinds of WeaponCategory:
  • GUIDED_MISSILE
  • UNGUIDED_MISSILE
  • GUIDED_TORPEDO
  • UNGUIDED_TORPEDO



This is an exciting change
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Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.3] Realistic Combat
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2022, 07:01:00 PM »

This is an exciting change

That change is now here!

Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.4] Realistic Combat
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2022, 07:24:27 PM »

I also noticed the issue where fighters are now slower than the carrier in some cases

I will fix this problem in the next patch by decreasing carrier speed and enormously extending fighter range.

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- this is an issue with realism in space combat because there isn't any realistic reason to use fighters in zero-g. There is no upper limit on speed for space vessels, so size isn't a factor in speed. The only reason to use fighters would be that a smaller mass is easier to accelerate and a smaller profile is harder to target, but with laser point defence and infinite sub-light fuel these benefits are made moot. Bigger is always better in space, using realistic flight models. Only maneuverability could be claimed as a benefit of a fighter, but given their fragility and the range of all weapon systems maneuverability doesn't really matter.

Laser point defense is weak at range, where massed bombers can launch missiles, torpedoes, and bombs to saturate enemy point defenses while the carrier remains safe.  The smaller the ship, the less point defense it has, but the bigger the ship, the further-away these weapons can be fired.  Mere machine guns or light autocannons, fired in numbers, can swamp the shields of a big ship from range.  The only protection against these attackers is launching interceptors to shoot them down, and the attackers' only protection against those interceptors is bringing fighter escort.

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Additionally the problem of calculating the proper leading pip for ballistic weapons fired between two ships which each have their own full physics simulated in two dimensions is quite difficult, to put it lightly.  An easier problem than three dimensions (to the guy who mentioned the X4 mod), but not really by a whole lot.

Fortunately, I use the code from Leading Pip.

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Even with approximated inertia, ships in the vanilla game sometimes don't lead their target properly.

This is a big bug.  The leading indicator displays the correct leading circle, but the ships somehow don't notice it.

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Of course, if either ship adjusts their acceleration even minutely while at great distance, the entire calculation needs to be repeated.

Realistic Combat dynamically limits projectile weapon ranges by muzzle velocity and target strafing acceleration.

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The accuracy of ballistic weapons in space combat falls to near zero in any realistic simulation, so this is pretty much as one would expect. Unless the muzzle velocity of the ballistic weapon is extremely high, good luck trying to hit a space ship that is executing evasive maneuvers. The problem with high muzzle velocity is of course the recoil which results from the shot, which goes up in proportion to the kinetic energy of the projectile, but to have any kind of accuracy you'd want to have the projectile travel as fast as conceivably possible.

Once so close that their target cannot strafe off their projectile path before being hit, ballistic weapons suddenly become unstoppable flux-hoses (autocannons) or devastating hull-crackers (cannons). 

Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.0.3] Realistic Combat
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2022, 07:32:45 PM »

Hastling Minigun from SWP become slow firing cannon with this mod. ( https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18938.0 )

This may sound like a cop-out, but I can't load the mod.  It says it's missing a graphic or something.  However, I reviewed the data and wonder if the Interruptible Burst feature makes the game think its Burst Size is 1.  If you could suggest another rotary autocannon to test, I would be much obliged.

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I think it will be very hard to properly rebalance weapons from other mods this way, I think its good idea maybe leave this one as total conversion (mod which is supposed to run without other Ship and Weapon packs and factions like Archean Order), and make light-weight version of this mod only with new damage model but leave weapon firerate and range unchanged. Another good idea, maybe add .csv file to forcibly change weapon type from regular cannon to autocannon.

Oh, it sure will be hard!  I think code that can use signs of designer intent it finds could often guess the right answer.  I have given the mod the TotalConversion tag to warn people that it's meant to be used and stable with other mods but drastically changes balance and may make some ship and weapon scripts run differently or not at all.

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Also regarding of mods, some scripted weapons got broken by mod.

Tell me about this!

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X4 Foundations, 3d space simulator game. It had simmilar mod with "realistic" flight, and it was very hard to hit someone with it.

Ah, thank you.

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No, Pip shows same wrong position where AI trying to fire.

Leading Pip and Alex seem to both use the same algorithm, then.  I guess I could just tamp down weapon range!

kurtwulfgang

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.1.0] Realistic Combat
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2022, 11:21:08 AM »

First of all:

You're an absolute madman. This mod is legendary. Huge potential. Fun as f***.. I applaud you my guy.

However...

This is basically a total conversion mod. Completely messes up the balance of other mods. Auto aim is way off sometimes. PD can't reach missiles and fighters at all. At very long ranges, manual aiming is impossible, you have to use autoaim all the time. Lots of other problems that players smarter than me will soon describe in depth.

What is certain that if you have built such a mod, you will be able to fix all the problems and this mod will be a beast.

I downloaded the game and logged on just to see this thing. It's great, Keep up the good work.
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Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.1.0] Realistic Combat
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2022, 12:53:08 PM »

First of all:

You're an absolute madman. This mod is legendary. Huge potential. Fun as f***.. I applaud you my guy.

Awwwwwwwwww!  Thank you sooooo much! :D

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However...

This is basically a total conversion mod. Completely messes up the balance of other mods.

Yup, and it does say that now!

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Auto aim is way off sometimes. PD can't reach missiles and fighters at all. At very long ranges, manual aiming is impossible, you have to use autoaim all the time. Lots of other problems that players smarter than me will soon describe in depth.

Weapon ranges might just be too long, or the dynamic range adjuster might allow for too much target strafing.

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What is certain that if you have built such a mod, you will be able to fix all the problems and this mod will be a beast.

Awwww.... thank you so much for your confidence in my modding ability!

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I downloaded the game and logged on just to see this thing. It's great, Keep up the good work.

WOW!  That is incredible.  I will push another patch today or tomorrow to fix the fighters and autofire range.

rada660

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Re: [0.95.1a][v1.1.0] Realistic Combat
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2022, 01:28:59 PM »

So I've returned to the game, after so long not playing it and I've been using your mod. However, I've noticed some stuff being odd.

The biggest concern is how AI leads their shot way too much and keeps missing targets that are moving. :I

And the second is how everything seems to shoot so damn fast. I don't recall most kinetic weapon with be a literal hailstorm.
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