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Author Topic: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is  (Read 2227 times)

Megas

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2022, 09:12:26 AM »

Just because Derelicts do not phase does not mean other ships in the fleet cannot.  You may not want phase ships in the fleet, but others may want to use both Derelicts and phase ships in the fleet.  Sure, it hurts if you do not want to use phase ships at all.

I get what you said.  My point was there is at least three skills good for everyone, assuming you want combat skills for your flagship.  The fourth one may or may not.  Without high-tech in the fleet, the other generalist options are among Sensors (for faster sneak speed), Electronic Warfare (possibly useless against Ordos), and Cybernetic Augmentation (story point sink).  None are ideal.

That said, it seems like you do not care to powerup your flagship, in which case, Gunnery Implants would not help much either, but not getting that (or Energy Mastery) means either getting Sensors or else Flux Regulations is blocked (because it has two skill prerequisites.)  For those who have no interest in piloting a flagship but want to use automated ships in the fleet, Tech is unkind.
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2022, 10:48:19 PM »

I wish the allowed ship list also had some other ships in it. I get why Doritos are unplayable, but i don't really see why Guardian is. Hell, some ships you recover already get nerfed, why can't the infinite missile boat?
And it would be extremely funny to carry around a flying brick that is the mothership even if it won't do anything.
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speeder

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2022, 11:14:19 PM »

I wish the allowed ship list also had some other ships in it. I get why Doritos are unplayable, but i don't really see why Guardian is. Hell, some ships you recover already get nerfed, why can't the infinite missile boat?
And it would be extremely funny to carry around a flying brick that is the mothership even if it won't do anything.

I just tested while making my own mod, giving  the infinite missile thing to a starliner, and making its 6 slots accept missiles (Still small). It became able to kill some capital ships just by spamming atropos torpedos. Infinite missile is more op than you think!
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2022, 11:20:09 PM »

The thing is, the player version can just, like. Not have that hull mod.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2022, 12:37:59 AM »

Then the ship would not be worth it since it is pretty much built around it
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2022, 01:09:59 AM »

So, basically, every other Domain droneship. But they're all recoverable.
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Amoebka

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2022, 02:06:30 AM »

Then the ship would not be worth it since it is pretty much built around it
Guardian is still plenty good without the autoforge. It's 40 DP for a capital with 5 larges, ATC and plasma jets. I would gladly use 2 with beta cores if possible.
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Salter

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2022, 10:19:01 PM »

The one case that sticks out where automated is better than human ship is Glimmer vs. Wolf.  Same DP cost, similar mounts, but Glimmer has 100 more dissipation (and a bit more capacity) than Wolf.  Wolf used to have omni shield but lost it without getting a bigger shield arc in return.

The wolf is a rather weak frigate yeah. Wolf seems to only handle kiting decently well, and you phase it out when you get something mildly better compared to it like a tempest.

Guardian is still plenty good without the autoforge. It's 40 DP for a capital with 5 larges, ATC and plasma jets. I would gladly use 2 with beta cores if possible.

Its definitely zig tier. You can add one to your fleet if you grab the console command mod, but it chews up near everything and is built like how a battleship should feel. Especially if you go with its default loadout.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 10:23:53 PM by Salter »
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Megas

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2022, 05:10:51 AM »

The wolf is a rather weak frigate yeah. Wolf seems to only handle kiting decently well, and you phase it out when you get something mildly better compared to it like a tempest.
It is more like, if I want to use something worth about 4 or 5 DP, why would I want to use Wolf when I can use Lasher or Centurion instead when they cost 4 DP and have better weapons?  Centurion even has better dissipation than Wolf.  Wolf is supposed to be the high-tech counterpart to those two.

With Automated Ships, I use Glimmer instead of Wolf because Glimmer has the flux stats to actually use weapons it is expected to use.  Wolf cannot support a medium weapon that is not a beam.

Wolf does not need flux stats to be on par with Glimmer, but Glimmer has a ten vent advantage over Wolf.  Even Lumen, the other Remnant frigate that costs 4 DP, has 200 dissipiation.  Compared to other human frigates, Lasher has 140 dissipation (but has ballistics and built-in Rangefinder) and Centurion has 170 dissipation (and can use ballistics).  Wolf only has 150 dissipation and cannot use ballistics.
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Salter

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2022, 07:41:52 PM »

If you look at both, you can see where the wolf is beaten by the glimmer in its specs. The wolf operates for 3 minutes vs the glimmers six, and while its shield stats are relatively the same, high energy focus will beat the Phase Skimmer. The Glimmers weapons systems does not need to compete with itself too much for mod selection and its getting an AI officer anyways which means its already strictly better than a cheap, mass-produced frigate.

Id argue its almost a bit unfair to compare the two really. One is a league ahead of the other.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 08:48:22 PM by Salter »
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2022, 10:35:20 PM »

Also, Glimmer is much more disposable, since it doesn't need to be refueled with crew after every destruction.
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Megas

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2022, 03:57:44 AM »

Id argue its almost a bit unfair to compare the two really. One is a league ahead of the other.
And that is the glaring exception for automated not normally being better than human ships.  It is Wolf is just weak and compares unfavorably even to other human ships, let alone Glimmer.  Wolf as it is probably should cost 4 or even 3 DP.  Wolf should either get its omni-shield back or have its shield extended for free like Lasher (which also originally had omni-shield, but was later fixed forward, then extended).  Wolf should also get more dissipation, at least more than Centurion, if Wolf stays at 5 DP.

As for other Remnant automated ships, they are mostly on par with on human ships.  Without a core, they perform about as well and die just as easily as other human ships.

Fulgent is mediocre for its 11 DP cost.  Its big gimmick is missile capacity... on a ship with HEF and those medium synergy mounts happen to be the best place to put medium energy weapons in.  Fulgent is relatively slow for a destroyer (less base speed than Hammerhead and no mobility system) and stuck with short-ranged energy weapons (while most human competitors have ballistics).  Basically mini-Paragon before Paragon got Advanced Targeting Core.

Scintilla can only use automated fighters.  It is basically the Remnant's Condor.

Brilliant is unremarkable; works fine, but no better than Dominator or Champion.  Apogee, probably the closest match, is cheaper than this.  This is probably the Remnant's Eagle, and Eagle is relatively weak this release, although at least Brilliant has a heavy weapon to back up its kinetics.

Radiant is strong but does not seem much stronger, if any, than Paragon.  Main reason Radiant is so deadly in Ordos is because they almost always have an alpha core piloting nearly every one of them.  Without the core, Radiant seems to be on par or slightly better than Paragon overall.  Even when controlled by the player via Neural Link, Radiant is only overpowered if player gets Systems Expertise on it to recharge the skimmer fast enough for spamming.

As for Derelicts, the only good one for its cost is Rampart.  Ramparts are tanky (as unshielded ships go) and pack a lot of firepower (including large missile) for only 15 DP.  Ramparts also have enough OP to get what they need (three heavy weapons plus mandatory hullmods).  The smaller Derelicts have too few OP and die too easily.  Vanguard is a better ship overall than Berserker for the same cost, much like comparing Tempest to Shrike.  The only thing Berserker can do better than Vanguard is snipe with three Maulers/HVDs.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 04:04:36 AM by Megas »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2022, 08:36:57 AM »

After some testing I'm finding the fulgent is actually pretty strong, but for all the wrong reasons. HEF is a bait, you should load it up with as many reapers as possible then grab a couple irpulses with ipdai + ePD.
EDIT: It also doesn't help that the AI is locked into "I want to die" mode.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 09:22:48 AM by BigBrainEnergy »
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Salter

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2022, 12:52:16 PM »

Honestly the fulgent is more comparable to a shrike in spirit and class. Outfitting it to puncture shields and armor and shoring up its shields is a good use for it. Im more critical of the Brilliant as its limited OP and logistical profile actively competes with what type of ship it wants to be, especially when there are imminently more effective options with humans. It feels like it tries to be a generalist too much, kinda like the odyssey.
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Thaago

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Re: Automated ships skill shouldn't be the content gate it is
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2022, 01:39:06 PM »

Fulgents are slightly slow (85 vs 90 of a Hammerhead/Sunder), and that combined with the short range of assault energy makes them vulnerable to kiting. However, their missile load is extremely high for their DP - up to 2 mediums and 4 smalls for 11. It has decent armor/hull (50 less armor than hammerhead) but significantly better shields (.6!) and flux.

Their flux is slightly low at 300 for an energy ship, but is then multiplied by HEF: this strongly encourages using fewer mounts for guns and more for missiles, as long as the flux budget is spent. A single heavy blaster works well, or an ion pulser/pulse laser + some ir pulses (AM blasters are good but overlaps in role with missiles and are OP expensive; the ship really wants to save OP for expanded missiles racks and maybe ECCM). BigBrainEnergy's ir pulse + ipdai +ePD would also work to get to 700 base range and better shield efficiency, though that means that one of the skills I would need to put on a gamma core fulgent would be ePD, and I'm not sure thats worth it. Plus as they mentioned, the AI already has a reckless personality built in (hooray!) so the range isn't as needed. For a gamma core, missile spec, combat endurance, and target analysis would work well (combat endurance might not be needed depending how many AI ships are in the fleet).

Hmmm, I wonder how a safety overides build would do? That solves the speed problem handily, 600 range energy weapons don't go down in range too much, its already reckless, and point blank SO missiles are a meme for a reason. 4 smalls + 2 mediums is almost Falcon P levels of missiles for just over half the price. Plus the build is probably already taking combat endurance for the 15% CR to counteract the limited AI numbers, and wolfpack for 10% damage boost against cruisers/caps, and Fulgents have extra long PPT to start with, so there is built in room to counteract the PPT drain from SO.
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