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Author Topic: Eagle + HSA decent?  (Read 3559 times)

Eudaemon

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Eagle + HSA decent?
« on: June 25, 2022, 11:51:05 PM »

Today trying to build a loadout for my Eagle XIV i manage to build this interesting setup

Spoiler


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I found HSA useful in this kind of "middle ranged hybrid" kind of thing
adding some hard flux for preasure with the Gravitons, Tac Lasers and Ion Beam for some EMP damage meanwhile the Heavy Mortars & Heavy Needler tearing armor and hull is so good, decent flux efficency too.
I just tested this and it can win a 1v1 against a Dominator.
Although I think it only works well with an officer with the right traits, in my case i would change Missile Spec to Target Analysis for my official but i found it max level in a derelict in the early game so its staying atm, maybe this build can even perform even better with Target Analysis or other traits.
What do you think? Should i change or add something? What s-mods would you build on?



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Dri

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2022, 12:50:59 AM »

I think the consensus is the Eagle is master of none without actually being a jack of all trades. Just not a good ship with no clear identity to it—it either loses the flux war or takes forever to actually kill anything.

Perhaps when the current in-dev patch comes out and we get ahold of those new IR Burst Laser weapons...
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2022, 08:51:38 AM »

A build which requires an officer to win against an unofficered ship is not great IMO. I personally have not found a use for HSA that was not outperformed by a conventional build.
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zeno

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2022, 09:38:24 AM »

With an aggressive officer, that same build would be better without HSA, because it can hover in/out of midrange to use ballistics, and also provide constant long range support.  With HSA, your beam range is cut to 600su, and given they're toward the rear of the ship, is noticeably shorter than even the 700su ballistics.  This forces the Eagle to try to stay at <600su, which drastically cuts down on it's survivability.  The only gain you get is ~700 hard flux on shield, bad trade imo.

I mean, in terms of a midrange skirmisher, this is worse than a 3x kinetics + phase beams build both in terms of burst and range, because you don't get adv optics.
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FooF

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2022, 12:02:20 PM »

I think the consensus is the Eagle is master of none without actually being a jack of all trades. Just not a good ship with no clear identity to it—it either loses the flux war or takes forever to actually kill anything.

Perhaps when the current in-dev patch comes out and we get ahold of those new IR Burst Laser weapons...

The Eagle is actually the "Standard of Average" in most respects and the fact that the metagame has pushed it into "weak" category tells us that, on average, ships have gotten stronger.

I'm of the opinion that the Eagle doesn't necessarily need stat buffs but more versatility. Turn a few Medium Ballistics into Hybrids or turn a few Medium Energies into Synergies (or maybe 2 of each!). The Eagle seriously lacks finishing power because Medium HE has an intentional "Missile Gap" to allow for Missiles to have a place but the Eagle doesn't really have Missiles!

Let's say the center Medium Ballistic was a Hybrid and the 2 lateral Medium Energies were Synergy, you could throw 3 Medium Missiles on there and have a pretty balanced Cruiser. It wouldn't do anything better than the other Cruisers but it would perhaps have the most flexibility (especially with all the new Missiles coming out). Heck, throw a single-flight deck on there and it really would be a jack-of-all-trades.

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Megas

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2022, 12:26:06 PM »

Eagle got more flux capacity this release, but that did not address the problems it has.  All it did was let Eagle shield tank a bit better or get away with less caps.

Eagle has three ballistic mounts.  If Eagle uses two kinetics less powerful than Heavy Needlers, then it does not have enough anti-shield DPS.  If it gets two heavy needlers so it can use the third for HE, then it lacks range compared to other cruisers that use 800+ ballistics, through heavy weapons or small weapons upgraded with Rangefinder or ePD+IPDAI.  If it uses three weaker kinetics with more range (HACs or small kinetics with range mods), then it lacks anti-armor with sufficient range.  (Phase Beams do not have enough range, and anything else with sufficient range lack DPS.)

Eagle does not have the speed to rush the enemy and use short-ranged energy weapons as assault weapons.  Eagle can either use weak long-range beams or short-ranged anti-missile/frigate beams.

Let's say the center Medium Ballistic was a Hybrid and the 2 lateral Medium Energies were Synergy, you could throw 3 Medium Missiles on there and have a pretty balanced Cruiser. It wouldn't do anything better than the other Cruisers but it would perhaps have the most flexibility (especially with all the new Missiles coming out). Heck, throw a single-flight deck on there and it really would be a jack-of-all-trades.
Turning the medium energy into synergy means Eagle cannot use small energy (beams) in them.  Also, turning hardpoint into synergy means it cannot use small ballistics in it.

However, I agree Eagle (and maybe standard Falcon too) needs more missile power.  Either the small energies should be synergy, or the small missile hardpoints upgraded to medium.  Changes applied to Eagle should apply to Falcon too.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 12:31:04 PM by Megas »
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Grievous69

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2022, 12:35:42 PM »

Eagle also got 75 more dissipation, which is actually big, that's almost 8 vents given for free. But I disagree that it needs more missile firepower, the whole thing about the ship (and Falcon) is that they only have some token missile mounts, while focusing on the ballistic + energy combo. There's already tons of missile mounts across the ship roster (kinda feels like missile creep tbh), I think we need to wait for the new weapons to arrive, and then see how the Eagle/Falcon performs.

But I honestly think things are fine right now, not every ship needs to be an assassin.
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Megas

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2022, 12:41:10 PM »

If Eagle cannot get more missiles, then it needs better ballistic options or maybe a built-in hullmod that adds +50% damage to ballistics.  Or make Eagle at least as fast as Falcon so it can use 600 range energies more easily.  Currently, the only energy Eagle can easily focus with its ballistics are weak beams that enemies can shrug off.
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zeno

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2022, 09:37:47 PM »

Eagle also got 75 more dissipation, which is actually big, that's almost 8 vents given for free. But I disagree that it needs more missile firepower, the whole thing about the ship (and Falcon) is that they only have some token missile mounts, while focusing on the ballistic + energy combo. There's already tons of missile mounts across the ship roster (kinda feels like missile creep tbh), I think we need to wait for the new weapons to arrive, and then see how the Eagle/Falcon performs.

But I honestly think things are fine right now, not every ship needs to be an assassin.

That's one way to look at it, but then I don't think it's even worth the 22DP.  If the ship just going be average at everything, then I'd like to at least be able to spam them to have it synergize with itself.  At 22DP I can't really do that effectively either.

Also, I'm curious why you think the new fragmentation beams will meaningfully help.  I can't imagine it'll be anywhere that can contribute noticeably to shield/armor damage.  In which case we'd still be trying to split anti-shield/armor across the 3 available ballistics.

I honestly just want 2 (or even just 1) of the front small energies to be hybrid/ballistic.  Being able mount one more small needler or a dlmg would go a long way for skirmish and SO builds respectively.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2022, 10:31:07 PM »

I think the eagle and the eradicator should trade DP.
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Megas

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2022, 05:10:43 AM »

20 DP seems to be the standard cruiser cost.  Eagle is worth no more than 20 DP.  It is weak enough that it is probably worth 18 DP.  I rather use Apogee over Eagle.  I think Fury is still a bit overpriced, but even it is more useful than Eagle.  Mora is a tank that is useful for 20 DP even without carrier skills.  Eradicators are strong for their DP.  Then, there is Gryphon that if it stays as it is, probably should be worth 25 or even 30 DP.  (Or officers nerfed so they cannot get both Systems Expertise and Missile Specialization unless they somehow reach level 8 and get seven red Combat skills just like the player.)

Also, I'm curious why you think the new fragmentation beams will meaningfully help.  I can't imagine it'll be anywhere that can contribute noticeably to shield/armor damage.  In which case we'd still be trying to split anti-shield/armor across the 3 available ballistics.
Not to mention that if the autolances turn out to be effective, then they become the no-brainer choice.  If the autolances are not effective enough, then the status quo remains, which is Eagle weak compared to its competitors.

I honestly just want 2 (or even just 1) of the front small energies to be hybrid/ballistic.  Being able mount one more small needler or a dlmg would go a long way for skirmish and SO builds respectively.
That will require ePD+IPDAI to give 700 range ballistics in hybrid mounts enough range.  (Ballistic Rangefinder does not work on hybrid mounts.)  I would not want the mount changed to ballistics because burst PDs in the small mounts are useful.  Also, ePD+IPDAI Ion Cannons and IR PLs are useful... for Falcon that is fast enough, but Eagle is too slow for this.
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smithney

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2022, 06:23:09 AM »

Eagle lost its line-ship niche to Champion and didn't really gain anything in turn. Its DP are also too high to compete with Apogee for the generalist role, not to mention Eradicator (which is busted atm and does great in other roles as well). I wonder in what direction will Alex take Eagle in the next patch, it's supposed to be used by three different factions even as uniquification is happening.

@Eudaemon: As Dri mentioned, Eagle is currently master of none while being midline: the tech school of ultra-specialized hulls. If you like the hull I wouldn't be worried about how to make it cookie-cutter, since there's no way to that anyway. Stick whatever you like on it and go to town with it B)
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2022, 06:55:55 AM »

Drop the eagle and fury by 2 DP, and raise the eradicator by 2 DP. Given that the standard cruiser price is 20 DP I can pretty confidently say the eagle is not above the power level of standard priced cruisers. The eradicator is definitely above the standard power level, and there's no way a fury is worth more than an apogee.

That being said, I'm not so confident the apogee deserves to be lower than other cruisers when it has fantastic flux stats, a large energy and large missile, as well as some free logistics hullmods. Oh, and 360 shield with 0.7 efficiency. The only thing it doesn't have is a decent ship system. I'm fine leaving it where it is but I'd understand if it were bumped up to 20.
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Megas

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2022, 08:09:07 AM »

That being said, I'm not so confident the apogee deserves to be lower than other cruisers when it has fantastic flux stats, a large energy and large missile, as well as some free logistics hullmods. Oh, and 360 shield with 0.7 efficiency. The only thing it doesn't have is a decent ship system. I'm fine leaving it where it is but I'd understand if it were bumped up to 20.
I think Apogee should be worth 20 DP, but I am fine with it being 18.

Active Flares is a decent system, especially on a ship without great mounts for PD, like Apogee.  It means it does not need PD as badly as other ships (although I have exploited ePD+IPDAI on Apogee to extend IR PL range.)  Instead of using burst PD to zap missiles when shields are offline or too slow going up, I can use (IR) pulse lasers instead to deal with flankers while flares intercept missiles.
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zeno

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Re: Eagle + HSA decent?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2022, 10:23:16 AM »

I honestly just want 2 (or even just 1) of the front small energies to be hybrid/ballistic.  Being able mount one more small needler or a dlmg would go a long way for skirmish and SO builds respectively.
That will require ePD+IPDAI to give 700 range ballistics in hybrid mounts enough range.  (Ballistic Rangefinder does not work on hybrid mounts.)  I would not want the mount changed to ballistics because burst PDs in the small mounts are useful.  Also, ePD+IPDAI Ion Cannons and IR PLs are useful... for Falcon that is fast enough, but Eagle is too slow for this.

If you're running at least one heavy needler in the mediums, there's no need for ballistic rangefinder or IPDAI in with this hypothetical change, you'd just drift in/out of 700su like you normally would today, but with more kinetic punch.

As for my dLmg comment, I was referring to SO builds, and yes ePD would be very nice to match the range of HMGs in the mediums (and I'd always take it), but not absolutely necessary either given the speed of SO + manuevering jets.
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