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[bowman]

Drop the eagle and fury by 2 DP, and raise the eradicator by 2 DP. Given that the standard cruiser price is 20 DP I can pretty confidently say the eagle is not above the power level of standard priced cruisers. The eradicator is definitely above the standard power level, and there's no way a fury is worth more than an apogee.

That being said, I'm not so confident the apogee deserves to be lower than other cruisers when it has fantastic flux stats, a large energy and large missile, as well as some free logistics hullmods. Oh, and 360 shield with 0.7 efficiency. The only thing it doesn't have is a decent ship system. I'm fine leaving it where it is but I'd understand if it were bumped up to 20.

I've thought the Apogee needs to be nerfed for a bit now- primarily because every time I fight them they drive me up the wall. They're a civilian ship and have no right being so tanky. I've got a custom mod I run that edits a few ship stats (like turning Claws into drone wings) and one of the things I do in that is nerf Apogee flux capacity and shield flux to 0.8 or maybe 0.9 (which the latter is maybe extreme combined with the capacity nerf but boy was I tired of fighting them at the time lol)

Oh, and people seem to be forgetting there's more than just the fragmentation energy being added next patch: there's the kinetic-dmg medium energy mount from the Sindrian Diktat special reserve as well, and depending on its stat lineup (namely, range) that could change Eagle quite a lot.

I do agree that there's been some power creep, though. The eagle used to be a very solid ship and while gameplay changes have also had an effect on that it isn't the overarching factor for its fall from grace. At least, not from my point of view. It's pretty alright to me to have an average of average vessel, though. Feels like a lot of the cruisers stray from that line into either heavy or light territory so it's nice to have something properly in the middle.

[Alex_P]

I've thought the Apogee needs to be nerfed for a bit now- primarily because every time I fight them they drive me up the wall. They're a civilian ship and have no right being so tanky. I've got a custom mod I run that edits a few ship stats (like turning Claws into drone wings) and one of the things I do in that is nerf Apogee flux capacity and shield flux to 0.8 or maybe 0.9 (which the latter is maybe extreme combined with the capacity nerf but boy was I tired of fighting them at the time lol)

It's not really a civilian ship at all, though. It's the sector's equivalent of the Starship Enterprise. I could see the case for maybe cutting the armor a bit more on account of hot much *soft stuff* (fuel, cargo capacity, sensors) it's got packed into that hull, but Apogees do pop pretty fast when you point a big capital ship at them.

[Megas]

I've thought the Apogee needs to be nerfed for a bit now- primarily because every time I fight them they drive me up the wall. They're a civilian ship and have no right being so tanky. I've got a custom mod I run that edits a few ship stats (like turning Claws into drone wings) and one of the things I do in that is nerf Apogee flux capacity and shield flux to 0.8 or maybe 0.9 (which the latter is maybe extreme combined with the capacity nerf but boy was I tired of fighting them at the time lol)

Oh, and people seem to be forgetting there's more than just the fragmentation energy being added next patch: there's the kinetic-dmg medium energy mount from the Sindrian Diktat special reserve as well, and depending on its stat lineup (namely, range) that could change Eagle quite a lot.

I do agree that there's been some power creep, though. The eagle used to be a very solid ship and while gameplay changes have also had an effect on that it isn't the overarching factor for its fall from grace. At least, not from my point of view. It's pretty alright to me to have an average of average vessel, though. Feels like a lot of the cruisers stray from that line into either heavy or light territory so it's nice to have something properly in the middle.

I doubt the kinetic blaster will have enough range to matter.  600 range kills all of the powerful energy options for Eagle.  Even Advanced Optics on Phase Lances is not quite enough range.  Even if range was not a consideration, its flux/sec might (400 I think).

Kinetic blaster will probably be good for high-tech that cannot use ballistics or heavy energy at all (like Shrike and Aurora).

But... from given info, Kinetic blasters are only available from drops from Lion's Guard Executors.

For energy weapons to matter on Eagle (without SO), they need to have long enough range to end near where 700-800 range ballistic end.  Eagle is a slow-poke without its system.

One thing Eagle is below average in is missile power.  Only two small mounts, which is destroyer-tier for midline and frigate-tier for low-tech/high-tech.

[Thaago]

I'm ok with Apogees being 18 OP. It has a strong shield, but its slow speed and short ranged weapons means that it cannot "punch up" effectively, nor can it hunt most targets that it can kill, so its almost entirely a defensive line ship. While the large energy is a good weapon and lets it give either strong anti-armor support (but no hard flux) at 1000 range+boosters, or close ranged firepower, most of its killing power comes from having a large missile mount (massed squalls are a thing now that they have so much more ammo). Also Apogee's shield bubbles are just so darn big that they get in the way of allies and catch a lot of stray shots.

Eagles are all around decent and their jets make them harder to pin down than most cruisers, and their shield/capacity are pretty good (people rave about the apogee's shields; Eagle's base capacity shield is 80% as strong and they usually have enough OP to get some caps), but they lack finishing power. They always have, but the problem has become worse because so many other ships have come out that are missile heavy.

I've found that they are actually pretty good against ordos and remnants though, because those are reckless enemies that will come to them, which mititgates the range issues on the medium energies. Having aggressive doctrine also really helps Eagles because they will close with slower energies in order to use their energies effectively.

The other thing that Eagles sometimes do is act really dumb, because their firepower is majority front focused, but they have a burst mobility system. So they'll sometimes try to swing their nose from one target to another, lose their system, and then just sit there not shooting anything because its too slow to get back on target.

...
For energy weapons to matter on Eagle (without SO), they need to have long enough range to end near where 700-800 range ballistic end. 
...

This I disagree with because I don't very much value range matching/max range kiting, but it is a problem for Eagles when they are trying to hunt down fleeing enemies, making the energy mounts more of a defensive emplacement. Good versus swarming enemies, good vs ordos/remnants, good vs capitals because the Eagle can just close the distance anyways if its going to use its flux for non-kinetic damage. Bad vs lone destroyers the Eagle is trying to hunt, bad vs peer cruisers that its trying to duel and can't get close enough to (though its part of the player's job to make duels not happen).

[Grievous69]

Yeah Kinetic Blaster will be an only SO weapon for Eagle it seems, and that's after you manage to get it. But in my eyes, it's not that much about powercreep (Alex admitted new ships can be a bit overtuned, but he balances things out nicely), I think it's more about ease of use. Look at other cruisers and how easily they fit into fleets and what can they do. Apogee keeps getting mentioned as a cheap line cruiser that can take a beating while also having decent firepower, large missiles are very potent. Eradicators are like Hammerheads, reliable ships that pack a serious punch and a ship system which AI can't screw up. Champions again bring a large missile to the table and in addition to that they have crazy damage potential. Once again a reliable ship with a "power up damage" system. Dominator may be less reliable than the previous examples but it will still do its job very well, for 25 DP you get a nice big package.

Then there's Eagle which honestly doesn't have anything wrong with it, but there just isn't that "oomph" or a wow factor that's present with other cruisers. Does it really need a buff that bad? I'm not quite sure. But I wouldn't mind personally if it gets something. Just note that it's a slippery slope with such ships which are all about range and speed (not that it's that fast but still).

[smithney]

But... from given info, Kinetic blasters are only available from drops from Lion's Guard Executors.

The blog post states "On the Diktat's midline ships,...", plural. So unless I missed something in the discussion thread, I expect we'll be able to loot KBs from LG fleets in general.

Doesn't seem Eagles would utilize the blasters very well and we'll probably see this demonstrated when fighting LG.

This I disagree with because I don't very much value range matching/max range kiting, but it is a problem for Eagles when they are trying to hunt down fleeing enemies, making the energy mounts more of a defensive emplacement. Good versus swarming enemies, good vs ordos/remnants, good vs capitals because the Eagle can just close the distance anyways if its going to use its flux for non-kinetic damage. Bad vs lone destroyers the Eagle is trying to hunt, bad vs peer cruisers that its trying to duel and can't get close enough to (though its part of the player's job to make duels not happen).

But why should I use Eagle when Champion offers me more at just 3 more DP? The only thing I can think of is the swarming you mention, but I feel like Eagle's outclassed by Falcons and Furies there, too (again, not to mention Eradicator).

[Grievous69]

The blog post states "On the Diktat's midline ships,...", plural. So unless I missed something in the discussion thread, I expect we'll be able to loot KBs from LG fleets in general.

I already asked this in the blog post thread and Alex said only Executors will drop the 2 unique weapons. Diktat ships all have normal weapons, it's the Lion's Guard fleets that can have unique weapons, and even there I was suggesting other ships in the fleet have Kinetic Blasters, and not just the Executor.

But more importantly, why do you feel Eagles are outclassed by Furies? I'd argue Fury is the one with bloated DP cost.

[smithney]

I already asked this in the blog post thread and Alex said only Executors will drop the 2 unique weapons. Diktat ships all have normal weapons, it's the Lion's Guard fleets that can have unique weapons, and even there I was suggesting other ships in the fleet have Kinetic Blasters, and not just the Executor.

That's a shame. Seems like smaller midline ships would do so comically badly with the KBs that Alex doesn't want them together.

But more importantly, why do you feel Eagles are outclassed by Furies? I'd argue Fury is the one with bloated DP cost.

Eagles are outclassed by Furies at swarming in my experience, as the latter are far more agile, have leaner profiles and do have kill potential (having a medium missile at prow and being able to utilize stuff like Heavy Blaster has something to do with that). I shouldn't have mentioned Furies though because I wanted to emphasize how Eagle is outclassed in its own tech school. I feel like bloated DP cost is somewhat given on a high-tech hull anyway.

EDIT: I just noticed I read Thaago's post wrong, he wrote "versus swarming", MB. In that case, Apogee is the competitor by the virtue of having access to Locust. I stand by the point of Eagle being outclassed by Champion as a line ship.

[Grievous69]

Ahaa, that makes sense. I agree then, Eagles tend to have trouble concentrating fire well and catching up to things they can threaten.

[Thaago]

Honestly I agree with you smithney, Champions are much better value than Eagles at being line ships. Eagles have their system... but Champions are 10 speed faster by default, partially negating the speed advantage Eagles have, and have both a better system and much better mounts. Eagles have better flux than Champions, but because Champions have better mounts, an amplifier system, and flux free damage from missiles they end up being much better armed.

Ahaa, that makes sense. I agree then, Eagles tend to have trouble concentrating fire well and catching up to things they can threaten.

This really nails the Eagles problem: they have a hard time catching things they can kill, and while they can stall/evade things they can't, they don't have the concentrated firepower to even be opportunistic if they get into a situation where they can gang up on something. The Falcon has a good niche of hunting down destroyers and even slow frigates (and has burn 9 so doesn't slow a destroyer squad) or being an excellent long ranged support kiter (longest range + fastest speed combo there is), but the Eagle doesn't have any niche it excels at, even being a line ship.

[Grievous69]

If the Falcon is considered good then it's not an issue with mounts since the Eagle has the same deal but more. The problem lies in the ship roster surrounding them. Falcon for its peers (14 DP) has very competitive stats and mounts, meaning it can be a nice pick for your fleet depending on what you need. Eagle tries to operate in the same role but that role doesn't really work in practice. I always forget Eagle is just 5 su faster than a Conquest! So if it's supposed to be a faster than average ship with mediocre firepower, why isn't it faster? Maneuvering jets isn't even something special nowadays since every other ship has a mobility system (same thing with upcoming blog post ships).

[BigBrainEnergy]

I only noticed after Thaago pointed it out, but the eagles base speed is 50... that's only 5 better than a conquest lmao. They even have the same system, so that means an eagle is just a crappy conquest. Just based off visual design I would assume the champion is slower than the eagle, which I guess it is once you factor in their their systems, but still. The champion definitely strikes me as being a "heavy" ship with those armour and hull numbers. The falcon used to be considered pretty bad but it dropped in dp cost and got a speed buff, maybe we need the same for the eagle. 60 s/u and 20 dp make sense if it's supposed to be a solid line cruiser without any particular strengths or weaknesses (aside from its anemic missile package).

[Thaago]

If the Falcon is considered good then it's not an issue with mounts since the Eagle has the same deal but more. The problem lies in the ship roster surrounding them. Falcon for its peers (14 DP) has very competitive stats and mounts, meaning it can be a nice pick for your fleet depending on what you need. Eagle tries to operate in the same role but that role doesn't really work in practice. I always forget Eagle is just 5 su faster than a Conquest! So if it's supposed to be a faster than average ship with mediocre firepower, why isn't it faster? Maneuvering jets isn't even something special nowadays since every other ship has a mobility system (same thing with upcoming blog post ships).

I agree with you on the Falcon having good stats/mounts for its peer group, but I also think the Falcon's speed greatly changes the value of the medium energy mounts: Falcons have enough speed to get in and out of range quickly so can use the 600 range weapons much easier, while Eagles struggle at that. So I think the medium energy mounts on Eagles have less value than on Falcons despite being backed up by a ship with more flux stats.

[FooF]

I suppose a speed buff would work in the Eagle’s favor more than other options. I’ve said for awhile that the Eagle lost its perch (ha) to the Champion early on. And while the Dominator was also the odd one out for awhile, it’s now very competitive because of its improved hull/armor.

I’d say maybe a buff to Maneuvering Jets but that affects quite a few ships.

[smithney]

I suppose a speed buff would work in the Eagle’s favor more than other options. I’ve said for awhile that the Eagle lost its perch (ha) to the Champion early on. And while the Dominator was also the odd one out for awhile, it’s now very competitive because of its improved hull/armor.

How long was it since Dominator was considered the odd one? I'm fairly new to the game, but I have never been confused about what role it's supposed to fulfill: Dominator's design just screams 'vanguard'. I feel like the latest changes have improved its fitness after being out of shape for the role. Whereas I have trouble seeing a solid direction for Eagle aside from being a generalist, which really rustles my jimmies considering midline's all about specialized craft.

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