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[Alex]

AI will fire missiles in lots of cases where it really shouldn't be doing it, some relatively clean examples:
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=21842.0

Thank you for the link! The 4th item is a bug that's currently fixed in-dev. #3 I'm not sure about, that does look a bit odd.

#1 and #2 - using the Hurricane - is expected behavior. For most missiles, there's an ammo capacity where the AI won't care about conserving it and will just fire it off. For the Hurricane, this is set to 5, so it'll start out by using a bunch of them without much concern for the tactical situation. This can be a good thing, especially of there are many of them on the field.

For most other missiles, this ammo capacity - where it'll conserve missiles - is burst size times 9. So, for example, a ship with maxed out Harpoon racks (or pods!) will still conserve all of them. The Breach is set to conserve all of its ammo - or, rather, it can be free with its fire (and actually is much more so in-dev), but the decisions are always based on the tactical situation, there's no point where it suddenly gets more or less conservative.

Also see Onslaughts fire Typhoons at fighters pretty often, 4 missiles in their own alternating group.
First few times thought it's a fluke but been keeping an eye on it and sometimes just does it with nothing else around, and not being close to dying.

Onslaughts do routinely fire reaper torpedoes at fighters, particularly fighters launched by Astrals. I have no idea why.

Oh, interesting! Is there an easy simulation where I can check this out? This sounds like a bug.

One trick I've learned recently on Enforcers with Reapers is to put the Reapers in 2 groups, each one composed of the reapers on one side of the ship, each in alternating mode. This bypasses the AI's tendency to fire 1 reaper, overload the target, and then not fire anymore because it switches to the other group to fire off another. I suspect there is some sort of anti-overkill timer on reapers that this kind of grouping can bypass to make the weapons more effective.

The AI doesn't like to fire the same STRIKE group in rapid succession; it's... basically an early move towards avoiding Reaper etc overkill/wasting all of them too quickly. It can also be extra punishing for the player when they're on the receiving end.

Are ships aware of other ships in the fleet that have already fired missiles?

Yes! Within a certain (large) radius of the target.

Also, maybe if the AI knows that firing linked groups would be really excessive overkill (20 harpoons for a hound) it should not fire instead? Not sure if that would be the best behavior, but also not sure that there is actually good behavior in that situation. I would definitely prefer a ship with 5 linked harpoon pods to just hold fire vs a hound personally.

I get what you're saying, but this sort of thing is really tricky - the example makes sense, but even then it's not *always* true (consider a 1-1 when one ship *just* has 5 linked harpoon pods), but the really complicated thing is drawing the line.

What the AI actually does here is introduce a random factor into the decision to fire non-kinetic missiles at shieldless ships - or, rather, just shieldless frigates - and increase the likelihood if the ship's own flux is getting higher. So for example, if you have a Legion with those 5x linked Harpoon Pods, it's very unlikely to use them at all when facing off against a pair of Hounds. Throw in something else that can apply enough shield pressure to drive up its flux, though, and it will use the missiles to get rid of them quickly. I think this works quite well, actually!

I'm kind of surprised to see the "AI wastes all its missiles against Hounds" thing pop up here and there. It used to do this, yes, but to the best of my knowledge it doesn't anymore, and I wonder how much that's just a meme at this point rather than reality. I mean, it'll fire a salvo *sometimes*, but it's very far from being a clockwork "see Hound, waste missiles" situation. For example, I just went through 5 fights - Legion vs 2x Hound - and it didn't fire a single Harpoon salvo.

Put a Buffalo Mk.2 in there, though, and the missiles start flying. I wonder if maybe this logic should be applied to destroyers, as well - or if the Buffalo Mk.2 should get a special flag that lets the AI know not to waste missiles on it...

[Thaago]

...

Also see Onslaughts fire Typhoons at fighters pretty often, 4 missiles in their own alternating group.
First few times thought it's a fluke but been keeping an eye on it and sometimes just does it with nothing else around, and not being close to dying.

Onslaughts do routinely fire reaper torpedoes at fighters, particularly fighters launched by Astrals. I have no idea why.

Oh, interesting! Is there an easy simulation where I can check this out? This sounds like a bug.

...

I used this one in the mission sim vs the astral and it will fire reapers usually on the second wave:
50 vents, 43 caps, ITU, Flux distributor, Armored weapon mounts, expanded missile racks
Vulcans in the 6 smalls
HVD in the 3 forward mediums, flak in the other 6 mediums (center 4 and rear flank 2)
Mjolnir forward, Hellbore on both sides
4 Typhoon Reapers in the missiles

I tested and the reapers will fire both with default weapon groups and with TPCs changed to Alternating, Reapers changed to Linked mode.

[Null Ganymede]

Don't think anyone's mentioned the Legion's amazing large turret arcs yet.

They're amazing.

Outside the simulator with the right officer skills it's an amazing dual Gauss platform with Pilum saturation and interceptor cover. The setup can't toe to toe capitals but (1) serves as a fleet anchor to bolster AI confidence (2) cleans up smaller ships as fast as its guns can fire and (3) puts out more than 40dp worth of map control.

That's without getting into what you can do with a flagship. The turret arcs and personal fighter PD make it better than the Onslaught at Burn Drive kiting. If you take the simulator as gospel, Legion has multiple setups that solo the simulator in player hands.

[gG_pilot]

Onslaughts do routinely fire reaper torpedoes at fighters, particularly fighters launched by Astrals. I have no idea why.

Agree, Torpedo logic is odd. Sometime  it target  totally not possible hit, (too far, too mobile), but most of time do not fire even in perfect position. Special screaming moment, when  opponent is overloaded, I would expect the torpedo or harpoon as perfect finisher. But no, AI stop fire all weapons, push back pedal and let opponent recover.

 On  top I have noticed, Breach rockets are aimed at fighters, and the same ship dont use  Swarmer rocket system (Primary Role    Anti Small Craft ) against fighters, but always shoot Swarmer at regular  the  main target. I think  Swarm logic is  very broken.

[gG_pilot]

#1 and #2 - using the Hurricane - is expected behavior. For most missiles, there's an ammo capacity where the AI won't care about conserving it and will just fire it off. For the Hurricane, this is set to 5, so it'll start out by using a bunch of them without much concern for the tactical situation. This can be a good thing, especially of there are many of them on the field.

For most other missiles, this ammo capacity - where it'll conserve missiles - is burst size times 9. So, for example, a ship with maxed out Harpoon racks (or pods!) will still conserve all of them. The Breach is set to conserve all of its ammo - or, rather, it can be free with its fire (and actually is much more so in-dev), but the decisions are always based on the tactical situation, there's no point where it suddenly gets more or less conservative.

  Hello. Thee rocket logic is  a  bit unpredictable. As far  as I nderstand, AI pilot is set it  can fire rockets (torpeedoes) at will if  stock is above a threshold. That is easy logic. The problem is, ship fire a rocket (or worst torpedo) in the handshake situation. For example, a  Shade (small phase ship) armed with yellow guided torpedo, use them from  ~800m then phase  in and try to sneak in.  Oponent  has  plenty of time to avoid misile or shoot them.

It would be better, to  make a "predicion of chance to hit & impact calculation". Then control usage of  rockets based on dmg_outcome_prediction AND amount_of_rockets AND amount_of_oponents_on_map AND own_life_expectancy_predicion.

The problem is, AI not only fire rockets at useless situations,  but  also  conserve rockets even battle is almost done. So, one  side  has overwhelming advantage in DP, but gets hits because they conserve rockets.

e.i. In case  of one side  has less DP, then AI should try to use  rockets more efficient and wait for better prediction  calculation outcome.  Also, when ship is under fire and is targeted by enemyes with combined stronger DP and his armor is getting low (life_expectancy ~ zero) then try to release as  much rockets as possible, because of logic "i am going to die, and take you with me"   

[Alex]

I used this one in the mission sim vs the astral and it will fire reapers usually on the second wave:
50 vents, 43 caps, ITU, Flux distributor, Armored weapon mounts, expanded missile racks
Vulcans in the 6 smalls
HVD in the 3 forward mediums, flak in the other 6 mediums (center 4 and rear flank 2)
Mjolnir forward, Hellbore on both sides
4 Typhoon Reapers in the missiles

I tested and the reapers will fire both with default weapon groups and with TPCs changed to Alternating, Reapers changed to Linked mode.

Thank you! Got this one sorted out. What was going on is it was firing at overloaded fighters - the check for this being a good window of opportunity to use a missile wasn't considering whether the target is a fighter. I *think* the issue would affect stuff like Harpoons too (unless something else would prevent them from firing in that case); the fix should cover all missiles.

[Thaago]

Woohoo!

[bowman]

I don't remember if anyone has mentioned it yet or not so: Shield Shunt. Just as it makes the Onslaught into its namesake, it does a similar job with the Legion.

I've had pretty decent success with bombers on the Legion but I normally do 2 wings of Mining Pods and 2 wings of Perditions/Khopesh/Cobra. The mining pods act as ablative armor; replace quickly to keep up refit times on the bombers, and won't be sent out to die (ruining replacement rate). The legion can be a very aggressive missile boat as a result. It burns into an enemy, starts vomiting projectiles meanwhile the bombers start vomiting missiles (as fast as they can be armed and launched). Shield shunt makes this even better because the Legion stops caring about its flux level and just goes ham all the time.

[gG_pilot]

Thank you! Got this one sorted out. What was going on is it was firing at overloaded fighters - the check for this being a good window of opportunity to use a missile wasn't considering whether the target is a fighter. I *think* the issue would affect stuff like Harpoons too (unless something else would prevent them from firing in that case); the fix should cover all missiles.

Do  you say that AI targets overloaded   fighters,  but not target overloaded ships ?
I  would expect, overloaded ships  is a  top  priority target for torpedoes, then unguided rockets, then anti-armor rockets.  Now it doesnt, which is always a screaming moment.

Also  could you confirmt fix, that Swarmer rocket system aim fighters  as it is in the weapon  description   ?
I know your development is  slow style,  but is there an  option to release a balance&fix patch  every 3 months,  then one content patch once per year, as  you already do.

[Draba]

#1 and #2 - using the Hurricane - is expected behavior. For most missiles, there's an ammo capacity where the AI won't care about conserving it and will just fire it off. For the Hurricane, this is set to 5, so it'll start out by using a bunch of them without much concern for the tactical situation. This can be a good thing, especially of there are many of them on the field.

Default being the spammy version makes sense, definitely don't want ships to go down without using most missiles.
For some cases a don't ever spam flag would help, but with 300% from racks+new skill hurricane ammo is high enough to not matter that much.

Thank you! Got this one sorted out. What was going on is it was firing at overloaded fighters - the check for this being a good window of opportunity to use a missile wasn't considering whether the target is a fighter. I *think* the issue would affect stuff like Harpoons too (unless something else would prevent them from firing in that case); the fix should cover all missiles.

Nice, M/L reapers are generous enough with ammo but if it also affected other missiles that could be a very significant improvement.

Do  you say that AI targets overloaded   fighters,  but not target overloaded ships ?
I  would expect, overloaded ships  is a  top  priority target for torpedoes, then unguided rockets, then anti-armor rockets.  Now it doesnt, which is always a screaming moment.

What you quoted means that right now all overloaded ships are top priorities, fighters weren't excluded like they should be.

[Megas]

Nice, M/L reapers are generous enough with ammo but if it also affected other missiles that could be a very significant improvement.
...
What you quoted means that right now all overloaded ships are top priorities, fighters weren't excluded like they should be.

That was what happened when my ships fired Harpoons at fighters.  Shield overload on some high-tech fighter, and missiles get launched.  Harpoons being wasted on fighters was painful, given their low ammo count.

[gG_pilot]

Do  you say that AI targets overloaded   fighters,  but not target overloaded ships ?
I  would expect, overloaded ships  is a  top  priority target for torpedoes, then unguided rockets, then anti-armor rockets.  Now it doesnt, which is always a screaming moment.

What you quoted means that right now all overloaded ships are top priorities, fighters weren't excluded like they should be.

That is a  bit wierd. Look above, I say  that overloaded ships gets  lowered target priority. Many occasions my ships just back pedal and do nothing, give overloaded ship time to recover, or even turn around and fly somewhere else.

For this wierd logic, you have to link any "smart" rocket  with suppression style rocket (annihilator, Squal) to make it use. Otherwise, usual AI style is fire rocket in small salvo prematurely (zero impact because it is hit by PD or swallowed by shield) or be overly conservative, so after the battle, many rockets are unused.

That is why Gryphone with Squall and all Harpoons linked together, is so strong. It uses pressure  style on harpoons, and win. You only need to make sure Gryphone dont start salvo at some probing small wing.

[Draba]

Do  you say that AI targets overloaded   fighters,  but not target overloaded ships ?
I  would expect, overloaded ships  is a  top  priority target for torpedoes, then unguided rockets, then anti-armor rockets.  Now it doesnt, which is always a screaming moment.

What you quoted means that right now all overloaded ships are top priorities, fighters weren't excluded like they should be.

That is a  bit wierd. Look above, I say  that overloaded ships gets  lowered target priority. Many occasions my ships just back pedal and do nothing, give overloaded ship time to recover, or even turn around and fly somewhere else.

Nothing weird about it, there is a misunderstanding here. Missiles are more likely to be fired at overloaded targets.
The problem was that when shielded fighters were overloaded they were also baiting missiles, like normal ships.

[Delta_of_Isaire]

One trick I've learned recently on Enforcers with Reapers is to put the Reapers in 2 groups, each one composed of the reapers on one side of the ship, each in alternating mode. This bypasses the AI's tendency to fire 1 reaper, overload the target, and then not fire anymore because it switches to the other group to fire off another. I suspect there is some sort of anti-overkill timer on reapers that this kind of grouping can bypass to make the weapons more effective.

The AI doesn't like to fire the same STRIKE group in rapid succession; it's... basically an early move towards avoiding Reaper etc overkill/wasting all of them too quickly. It can also be extra punishing for the player when they're on the receiving end.

Wow, that explains a lot.


One of my gripes with AI missile usage is the AI is really trigger-happy against targets that are already almost dead, resulting in massive overkill wasteage. Particularly noticeable wit Sabots and Breach, where the AI refuses to spam those in appropriate situations, but as soon as the target is struggling (at which point Sabots and Breach are past the point of their main usefulness) the AI lets loose.

Edit:

Heron would stomp an Eagle lmao, but that's not the point.
...
And for the funniest bit today,

(Reminder to please treat the other forum members with respect.)

I wasn't really offended. More amused because the concept of a Heron stomping an Eagle seems unrealistic to me. There is no way for a Heron with bombers to solo an Eagle. Maybe with 3 Lux fighters it could gradually wear the Eagle down, but that's only because the Eagle AI is bad at using Maneuvering Jets to chase the Heron. AI usage of MJ needs to be looked at IMHO. In player hands, the Eagle definitely can catch the Heron and proceed to 'stomp' it.

[Daynen]

"sit comfortably at max flux"

This entire phrase confuses me.  If I'm at max flux, I am the opposite of comfortable because not only am I risking overload on the tiniest of bad shield flicks, I probably can't fire all my guns.

Max vents for life.