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[Amoebka]

2 hellbores are enough HE damage. The one mauler is for SO hounds and such.

"Xyphos is only 1200 range", which is still more than most cruisers with ITU that you will be fighting.

[Megas]

Xyphos is the only reliable PD option Legion has to zap things behind the ship, where there is no turret coverage at all.

I use one Xyphos on Legion (standard and XIV) mostly for the burst PD to zap incoming Salamanders and the like.

[Goumindong]

2 hellbores are enough HE damage. The one mauler is for SO hounds and such.

"Xyphos is only 1200 range", which is still more than most cruisers with ITU that you will be fighting.

But not enough kinetic damage. You’re spending 500 flux/second to do 250 shield damage when you could be spending on kinetic to do 1000.

[Amoebka]

4 railguns and 4 HVDs is now not enough kinetic damage? I don't really understand what you are trying to say. The build has plenty of kinetic damage and plenty of armor-breaking.

[Goumindong]

167 x 4 + 138 x 4 = 1220. For 80 OP and 1300 flux. And this does not count the inefficiency in shooting the Hellbore too.

348x2 + 100 x 4 = 1096 for 52 OP and 1096 flux.

So the extra 28 caps I get is worth 5600 damage for almost a 6k damage advantage after flux efficiency.

Now I suppose you could run 4x rails instead of LAC with the build I proposed. And that may be better. But the HVD are not. And the Hellbore is not.

[Vanshilar]

Funny enough, in testing in a Gryphon fleet vs triple [REDACTED], the best Legion build I've found so far is...4 Cobras, 2 Gauss, 4 HVD, 1 Heavy Mauler. Note that this is mostly a long-range, standoff engagement due to the Gryphon fleet, and a longer battle since it's triple [REDACTED].

* I couldn't find any medium missiles that could provide the same amount of damage over the long haul compared with just putting ballistics on those medium composites. Even with EMR and Missile Spec. Maybe they'd be better for shorter battles, or if the battlespace weren't dominated by masses of missiles from the Gryphons.
* I feel like Ballistic Rangefinder for the small ballistics is a bit of a trap. Yes they allow you to boost their range to 900, but you're spending a lot of OP on it. The total damage dealt to OP spent ratio wasn't that good. A Light Needler with Ballistic Rangefinder did roughly 75% of the damage of an HVD, but is much more expensive due to the extra hullmod. Perhaps if the Legion closed in more then they'd be more useful (the Legion flagship was mostly autopilot, except for occasional burn drives to keep it at the front when it got blocked by Gryphons).
* Yes the ballistics are very kinetic-heavy, but they have relatively good hit strength so they do decent damage to hull. They ended up putting out more damage overall than sticking HE weapons in those slots.

The build does around 16-18% of the overall damage of the fleet, while Legion XIV (4 Cobras, 2 Squalls, 4 HVD, 1 Heavy Mauler, 4 Railgun) does around 20-22% of the overall damage. In comparing the XIV versus the regular version, Squall does far more damage than Gauss (or any other large ballistic that I tried) with zero flux, and although Legion XIV needed to get Missile Spec and EMR for that, it didn't need to load up as much on vents since there's not as much flux usage. Hence it could afford to slap on some Railguns for extra damage without breaking the flux bank.

So basically, regular Legion has roughly 80% the damage output of the Legion XIV, as far as I can tell. Unless someone wants to suggest a better build. I'm not sure how much of an improvement adding 20-30 OP to the ship would actually do though, in terms of allowing it to increase its damage output, for example.

[Brainwright]

* I couldn't find any medium missiles that could provide the same amount of damage over the long haul compared with just putting ballistics on those medium composites. Even with EMR and Missile Spec. Maybe they'd be better for shorter battles, or if the battlespace weren't dominated by masses of missiles from the Gryphons.

I feel this is a fault in the current selection of medium missiles more than anything.  Most of the missiles are special-purpose, and the one standoff missile is the Annihilator, which has less than ideal range because the projectile is so slow.

I'm hoping one of these oncoming DEMs has enough ammo to be as reliable as a Squall or Annihilator.  If one of these just follows after a retreating ship and keeps its shields up with a laser for several seconds, forcing it to close to try shooting the missile down, that's all that's needed.

We'll see.

[cytokine]

Funny enough, in testing in a Gryphon fleet vs triple [REDACTED], the best Legion build I've found so far is...4 Cobras, 2 Gauss, 4 HVD, 1 Heavy Mauler. [...]
The build does around 16-18% of the overall damage of the fleet, while Legion XIV (4 Cobras, 2 Squalls, 4 HVD, 1 Heavy Mauler, 4 Railgun) does around 20-22% of the overall damage.

Those single maulers have me intrigued... do you think the mauler works for actually punishing lowered shields, or making the AI do what you want it to?

[gG_pilot]

I find out a nice way how to add value to SUPPORT  capital ship without power creep.
Add a built in salvage  gantry.
It would  be the only Capital size salvage gantry in game.
it basically add one free ship slot, because all (most fleets) has at least one  SalvageRig ship.
Such advantage negates low combat performance and highlight role  of The Capital Support-Utility ship.

[Doctorhealsgood]

I don't understand why the Legion would be designed with a capital class salvage gantry straight out of the factory.

[robepriority]

Honestly I'd say being able to reliably bully lesser ships is a key advantage. It's not good at killing other capitals, but if it were it would be a battleship.

I use mine to back up my onslaughts and protect them while they duel the enemies capitalships.

In all my years of playing Starsector, the battleship has never been the first ship to go down.

[gG_pilot]

I don't understand why the Legion would be designed with a capital class salvage gantry straight out of the factory.

  Because it is designed as support  for wing of Onslaughts. After wining  battle Legion comes, salvage all the scrap Onslaughts made, transform into useful supply so fleet can keep going.
When you look at Salvage gantry math mechanic, then Capital size of this think is extremely valuable. On top, there is no other capital gantry in game, whitch turns Legion into UNIQUE support battle ship. Result   is > QQ for Legion underwhelming is no longer valid, because of high utility value of the ship.

[BaBosa]

It’d be weird that the only destroyer sized ship with salvage is dedicated to it, then you have no cruiser sized one and then you have a good (not great) combat capital ship with salvage. If you were going to do that then salvage should be thrown on more ships in general like the venture.

[Kos135]

Forgive me if this has already been pointed out but the Vanilla Legion has 5x Medium Composite turrets. That means ballistic/missile, with missiles being the obvious choice so you can have decent flux stats. IMO it should be thought of as a tanky missile boat first, and a battlecarrier second.

[Thaago]

Its been a lot of pages but my feeling is still that the ship just needs like 50 OP, enough for a few hullmods or premium options, and it would be fixed right up.