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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: The Pilgrim's Path (07/19/22)

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Author Topic: Buff HBL for the next release  (Read 1051 times)

Drazan

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2022, 06:24:58 AM »

About Thumper. I played with it a bit tried it on falcon and other midline ships (I really dont see it working on lowtech), but i could not get results that would not be overshadoved by other ballistic options.
Megas do you have any  builds that make good use of thumper?

HBL is good point defense on some mod dreadnoughts that have energy mounts. It is also good on brilliant as you said. I think it is fine now the is just not much ship that would use it.
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FooF

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2022, 08:23:50 AM »

I would not recommend Thumpers on Enforcers: they flux themselves out on it. I actually find the Thumper to be decent substitute for the Assault Chaingun. Yes, you need another way to get through armor but the ACG really isn’t even good at that and I just like the raw DPS for hull.

HBL, as it is, is too much of a trap: it takes a valuable Medium Energy, isn’t a great PD option for 11 OP, and doesn’t do appreciable damage to anything else. Maybe the best fix is reduce the cost of BPD and HBD to 5 and 8, respectively, so you don’t expect too much from them.
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Shinr

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2022, 09:39:54 AM »

The impression I'm getting here is that it would be easier for devs to create a new useful high tech ship with built-in HBL as an extra than to make HBL worth taking on its own.
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Megas

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2022, 10:26:36 AM »

I do not use Thumper because either I need the mounts for (mostly) anti-shield and (some) anti-armor, or Thumper does not have enough range.  It is more like my ships have been cut down by Thumper when used by the enemy, usually when I test Vanguard or other small ships against SIM Enforcers, pirate ships, and the like.

HBL, as it is, is too much of a trap: it takes a valuable Medium Energy, isn’t a great PD option for 11 OP, and doesn’t do appreciable damage to anything else. Maybe the best fix is reduce the cost of BPD and HBD to 5 and 8, respectively, so you don’t expect too much from them.
While I would love the OP reduction, I do not see that happening when even weaker (LR) PD Lasers cost 4 or 5 OP as they are.  Burst PD is much better than those two.  Also, burst PD does not need IPDAI to track like small ballistic PD do.  Then again, I use IPDAI much on several ships either to make Vulcans track reliably enough or to exploit the elite Point Defense skill and turn small weapons into long-range assault weapons (with PD being a welcome bonus).

Heavy Burst Laser is okay as an assault weapon on the likes of Medusa, where enemies happily flux themselves out with more inefficient weapons, then Medusa wears them down with Railguns and burst laser spam.  Unfortunately, that does not work on Ordos, where defense and slow kills is not an option.

As a PD option, it is the only PD option for medium-sized energy (aside from Omega's Rift Beam).  There ought to be a PD option.

The impression I'm getting here is that it would be easier for devs to create a new useful high tech ship with built-in HBL as an extra than to make HBL worth taking on its own.
I use HBL primarily on midline ships.  Occasionally on high-tech.  If I used Venture, I probably want to use HBL for PD and HVD/Mauler in ballistics.  I do not want to try to beat down enemies with a mining/heavy blaster given their inefficiency.
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Thaago

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2022, 10:39:55 AM »

I think the energy pd line could be:
pd laser: 3 OP
lrpd: 3 OP
burst pd: 5 OP
heavy burst pd: 7 OP

Perhaps that is a bit too cheap! But if I'm thinking about what a trio of vulcans can do for point defense vs a trio of pd lasers (wolf vs lasher for example), or what a flak vs a heavy burst pd does it seems reasonable.
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FooF

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2022, 01:33:42 PM »

I think the energy pd line could be:
pd laser: 3 OP
lrpd: 3 OP
burst pd: 5 OP
heavy burst pd: 7 OP

Perhaps that is a bit too cheap! But if I'm thinking about what a trio of vulcans can do for point defense vs a trio of pd lasers (wolf vs lasher for example), or what a flak vs a heavy burst pd does it seems reasonable.

Honestly, this is probably the best solution. PD lasers are mediocre under ideal conditions and should no way cost as much as Vulcans. I don’t even think burst PD is anywhere near Vulcans and yet they’re a almost twice as expensive. I know this has been brought up before but what’s the rationale for BPD/HBPD being so expensive? I get that high tech doesn’t need to have as good of PD relative to Low Tech but I can’t recall why OP prices are so high for mediocre PD.
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Thaago

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2022, 01:43:14 PM »

I think the performance of burst pd is pretty good, and better in some ways than a vulcan. They have range to destroy sabots before they enter second stage, circling missiles like Salamanders, or missiles targeted at other ships. They also have alpha strike to kill fighters before they can fire (if there are several burst PDs). It comes at the cost of their sustained effectiveness vs saturation being significantly worse, but that to me is a legitimate tradeoff.

For example, on some of my Falcon builds I'll put 4 burst PD on and their in battle PD performance is very solid, reliably killing many missiles and fighters in a big area. 28 OP is really painful though - absolutely paying a premium to have effective PD.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2022, 02:02:47 PM »

I'd guess the theory behind energy PD being more expensive is that multiple ships are more likely to be able to focus fire with them, enhancing their fleet effectiveness relative to ballistic PD options which tend to only protect the ship they is on.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2022, 04:28:35 AM »

But if we compare a HBL to a Burst PD (which isn't even that great a small PD mount!) we get
BPD 214/64 DPS, 500 range, 7 OP
HBL 244/74 DPS, 600 range, 11 OP
HBLs carry 5 charges to the BPD's 3, so they can maintain their higher DPS for a bit longer. Its not enough IMO to make them worth it, but it raises their alpha strike vs fighters to 882 damage (they get a recharge during the firing, with another charge coming in .4 seconds for 1029) vs the burst pd's 384 (with a 4th shot for 512 .2 seconds delayed). So for non-saturation situations the HBL does carry a more 'in the tank'
I would see the word "Burst" as the most important functionality of the weapon system. So sustained fire is intended to be low.
Therefore buff up number of charges from 5 to 7.
On top consider some of these:
a] lower OP from 11 to 10
b] make sure that it has dmg per shot high enough to one-hit-kill any rocket(include torpedoes, but without ECM). Information in the weapon description, that "this PD greatly reduce torpedo danger by one-hit-kill capability" would make it worth consider for certain ships. Also make sure this PD has "improved  logic to prevent overkill" so it selects first torpedos, then rockets based on their current HP, then bombers, then fighters, then charging, if NO_CHARGES>1/2 of MAX_CHARGES then shoot anyhing else
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 05:13:53 AM by gG_pilot »
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