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Author Topic: Buff HBL for the next release  (Read 1303 times)

SonnaBanana

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Buff HBL for the next release
« on: June 09, 2022, 03:41:29 AM »

Otherwise IR Autolance will be all-around better even if it costs more OP.
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Drazan

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2022, 01:00:33 PM »

Sadly there are alredy weapons that are never used since many versions, and they never got buffed. Thumper for example.
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Grievous69

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2022, 01:14:16 PM »

Sadly there are alredy weapons that are never used since many versions, and they never got buffed. Thumper for example.
Literally the latest patch had Thumper buffed and now it's actually strong. Do people not even notice the patch notes and in game stats? To this day I see so often people claim Thumper is weak and should get buffed.

As for the topic, yes, HBL is too expensive for what it does, Autolance is already confirmed to be a cheaper option. And even with a cheaper HBL I doubt anything will change. You just don't use mediums mounts for PD duty when every ship has lots of small mounts, mediums are needed for actual firepower. Honestly I think it needs a rework, being just a Burst PD with more charges is sad.
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FooF

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2022, 02:40:54 PM »

Basically 100% on-board with Grievous69 here.

Medium Energies are too valuable to mount with a good-not-great PD option. Even if HBL was an elite PD option, it's the same issue you have with the Paladin: great PD but it takes up a Large Energy that can do real damage.

Here's my thought: keep the whole beam/charges identity but it can track/shoot 3 independent targets at once. Beams can't converge on single targets but neither does it eat a charge. Charges are refilled in clip-fashion of 2 every 2 seconds. Max charges raised to 10. It can shoot at a ship and other missiles/fighters simultaneously, if it has charges. For the purpose of firing arcs, the ancillary beams can shoot up to 45 degrees off-center. (Re-name "Trident Burst Laser" :D) Against single targets, its sustained damage isn't stellar but it's twice that of current (146 DPS) and at max charges, it can actually do a fair bit of burst damage. Expanded Magazines really boosts burst and PD-potential.

Overall, it becomes more of a hybrid weapon: Elite PD that doubles as a good-not-great generalist weapon.
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Grievous69

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2022, 11:46:44 PM »

That seems good, and immediately I see myself using it in 2 medium energies on Conquest, instead of having Burst PDs all around. Which I think is how things should work ideally, if you're willing to sacrifice a larger mount for a PD weapon, that weapon should be much better compared to small mount spam.
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Megas

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2022, 04:40:33 AM »

The only reason I use medium over small is +100 range.  The anti-decoy feature is barely relevant.

I use Heavy Burst Laser primarily as a long-range anti-armor beam with +200 range more than Phase Lance when I have an ePD officer.  It is not quite strong enough for the job, but it is the only option when nothing else with better anti-armor has sufficient range or when Phase Lance is too inefficient or flux hungry; too low sustained DPS, does not shoot fast enough.  The only reason I use Heavy Burst Laser for assault is Graviton Beam, LR PD Laser, and Tactical Laser are even weaker at anti-armor.

I like to see Heavy Burst Laser getting better sustained DPS, or at least strong enough to shoot down missiles in one shot that takes two for small burst PD.

I have used kinetic and burst PD ships, and they are effective against human fleets.  However, they are slow killers, and slow killers are no good against Ordos who outnumber and overpower weaker ships.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 04:49:49 AM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 10:41:14 AM »

That seems good, and immediately I see myself using it in 2 medium energies on Conquest, instead of having Burst PDs all around. Which I think is how things should work ideally, if you're willing to sacrifice a larger mount for a PD weapon, that weapon should be much better compared to small mount spam.

Most definitely. The main comparison being a flack compared to a vulcan.

Vulcan, 500 DPS(kind of), 250 range  4 OP

Flack 200 DPS (AoE!), 500 range!, 8 OP

But if we compare a HBL to a Burst PD (which isn't even that great a small PD mount!) we get

BPD 214/64 DPS, 500 range, 7 OP

HBL 244/74 DPS, 600 range, 11 OP

We barely get any extra range, we barely get any extra DPS, we don't get any AoE. But additionally we have to start competing with "for real ship killers" like heavy blasters

If HBL was AoE. Able to target three independent targets at once, but not able to stack that damage onto a single target. It would be far better. Granted, making that happen might be very difficult in terms of creating the weapon
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Thaago

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 11:16:37 AM »

As an addition to the above information, HBLs carry 5 charges to the BPD's 3, so they can maintain their higher DPS for a bit longer. Its not enough IMO to make them worth it, but it raises their alpha strike vs fighters to 882 damage (they get a recharge during the firing, with another charge coming in .4 seconds for 1029) vs the burst pd's 384 (with a 4th shot for 512 .2 seconds delayed). So for non-saturation situations the HBL does carry a more 'in the tank' than a burst pd, but the sustained DPS not being very improved is painful.
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Serenitis

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2022, 03:11:32 AM »

What if instead of giving the H. Burst more firepower, it didn't 'overkill' things?
Give the weapon a feedback 'sense' (like a battery charge circuit), so it knows if the target it hits doesn't use a full charge worth of damage.
One shot uses 1 ammo if it hits but doesn't kill the target. If the shot hits and kills the target, any weapon damage in excess of the targets HP is returned to the weapon as a fractional charge.

That way it's no better than current for attacking ships, but it could shoot multiple missiles on a single ammo charge.

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Megas

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2022, 04:45:17 AM »

It could be a bit better for attacking ships.  I do not notice a power difference between it and small burst PD.  The only differences I notice is more range, more charges, and ignores decoys.  It could use a bit more damage or faster recharge.
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Drazan

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2022, 08:27:04 AM »

Wait. IR autolance will be point defense? I thought It will be more like the gravitron beam.
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Thaago

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2022, 01:55:04 PM »

I don't think IR autolance will be point defense but it is apparently very good vs fighters.

For attacking ships, I don't think either of the burst PDs are meant to do so as a primary role. Their decent anti-armor makes them better than usual against fighters and acceptable for 'plinking' hull damage at reasonable efficiency, but their low DPS means they are never doing to be 'good'.
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Drazan

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2022, 02:17:03 PM »

I don't think IR autolance will be point defense but it is apparently very good vs fighters.

Then I dont think it really competes for the HBLs niche. Really good aganist figter may be good accuarcy but only somewhat good turnspeed.
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Embolism

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2022, 10:17:24 PM »

My impression is that the IR autolance is basically meant to let Midline ships "leave medium energies empty except not really" by having them contribute some paltry shield/armor damage with the slightly niche use of deleting fighters and sizzling through naked hull. It's for ships that struggle for flux if they fill their medium energies with conventional, flux-inefficient weapons; and probably of limited use on high tech ships that have flux to spare.

Regarding the HBL, I honestly agree that it doesn't need to exist. It's just a bigger Burst PD, hell even its sprite is almost just an upsized copy. I would love for HBL to go and be replaced with another more conventional energy weapon.
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Megas

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Re: Buff HBL for the next release
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2022, 04:09:24 AM »

Hopefully, IR Autolance will do more than zapping fighters.  It had better rip through hull fast and vaporize ships like Thumper or Cryoblaster does to make up for poor anti-armor.

I have left small energy mounts empty on Falcon and Eagle to use Heavy Burst Lasers in the medium mounts.  Also, if I do not use burst laser spam with ePD, I may use ePD IR PL or Ion Cannon in the smalls and use HBL for PD in the mediums.

I use HBL in the rear medium mount on Brilliant (plus burst PD in the smalls).  Brilliant has weird mounts like Apogee, and next release, it will lose flares and its fighter bay, so PD will be even harder.

And HBL is useful for ships that want to use burst PD but cannot because the mount they want to use it on is a synergy (e.g., Aurora).
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