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Author Topic: DP vs OP chart  (Read 10719 times)

Amoebka

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2022, 01:54:43 PM »

IR Autolance looks like a Thumper in beam form. 
Well, that's exactly what Falcon/Eagle need. Their main weakness is long time to kill stuff. Having a good anti-hull weapon would combine nicely with their shield/armor breaking ballistic capability. Maybe Falcon will struggle with its low weapon count, but I'm excited to try Eagle builds.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2022, 01:59:28 PM »

Their weakness (of killing things too slowly) is either lacking enough long-range kinetic DPS to break shields if they pack anti-armor on a hardpoint or lacking enough long-range anti-armor if they do have enough kinetic DPS from three kinetics on hardpoints.  Also, lack of missiles.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 02:01:18 PM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2022, 02:10:12 PM »

I find Falcons after the latest buffs to be in good shape. They have low firepower for their DP cost, but they have lots of speed, range, and defenses to compensate. They are fast enough to successfully use 600 range energy weapons (or 800 range phase beams with advanced optics, but its not even required) as their main targets are destroyers or other light cruisers (if they are fighting larger ships, they are expected to have support so have distraction/cover to close the range). That lets them dedicate the ballistics to kinetic and then tailor the energies to the other needed types (phase lances, pulse lasers, and ion beams all have a place on different builds, and even Heavy Blaster on some specialty built ones).

I agree that Eagles need a hand still, and hopefully the new weapons will help. Unlike Falcons they don't have enough speed to use the 600 range energy weapons, which really hurts their offense, and at their DP they are expected to deal with enemy cruisers solo.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2022, 02:15:09 PM »

Should I take Eagle (22 DP), or Gryphon (20 DP)?  I would take Gryphon.  Even if they cannot brawl with gunships, they can still overwhelm stronger enemies with sheer long-range missile power.

Gryphon probably should get a DP raise, if nothing else changes.  I doubt the Squall nerf (or pounding armor/hull) will affect them much if they can combine it with Harpoons.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 02:17:33 PM by Megas »
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Amoebka

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2022, 02:31:05 PM »

Gryphon is just an unfair ship in general, it's hard to compare things to it. Eradicator is a more direct competitor, and it's much stronger than Eagle in about the same niche (long range DPS).
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2022, 04:11:55 PM »

Gryphon is just an unfair ship in general, it's hard to compare things to it. Eradicator is a more direct competitor, and it's much stronger than Eagle in about the same niche (long range DPS).
What can be compared is how much bang the player gets from the DP spent.  Gryphon may be unfair, but it cannot be denied that it can punch above its DP.  Does not matter if Gryphon cannot be compared directly with Eagle or other conventional warship in their roles.  What matters is how far above its DP cost can Gryphon (or other overpowered ship) can perform.  Of course, Gryphons wants some tank ships to protect them, which I have too.

Eagle seems balanced, it performs roughly its DP in weight.  If I fight human fleets, Eagle does alright, and I am not too pressured to kill things very quickly.  If I take Eagle to an Ordos, Eagle dies if I try to fight fair, and Eagle cannot play unfair like an overpowered ship and it does not excel at any role aside from long-range low-powered poking which stronger enemies can ignore.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 04:13:38 PM by Megas »
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Amoebka

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2022, 04:56:18 PM »

Of course, Gryphons wants some tank ships to protect them, which I have too.
Gryphons don't really want anything other than more Gryphons. Pure DP-efficiency is a shoddy way to compare ships, because then you realize the "best" approach to the game is spamming monofleets of overpowered ships and never bother with the other 95%. It's almost a given that player fleets have some amount of "self-imposed challenge" in them, so unless two ships perform a similar role for some variety of a flavoured fleet, comparing them isn't meaningful.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2022, 05:29:32 PM »

Is gryphon still OP without squalls or hurricanes? Because both are getting nerfed next patch.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2022, 05:32:18 PM »

I would like more Gryphons too, but the biggest problem with that, assuming I want a monofleet of them for a given moment, is I need to spec every officer for them, and if I want anything else and replace the Gryphons and officers later, I need to waste a day or more grinding new officers for new ships.  Also, depending on what else I want in the fleet, I cannot take more Gryphons than I already took.  (It is a similar reason why I never built ten Timid officers for Pilum spam fleets when Pilum spam was overpowered in older releases, I could not be bothered with the time it took to level them up only to discard them soon after when I want my normal fleet with Steady/Aggressive officers back.)

I refuse to mold every officer into Gryphon specialists because I do not want to be locked into a fleet that will take days of grinding to undo.  Two or three officers for some Gryphons is the most officers I am willing to dedicate to a single ship type.  (I give up skills that I would not do if the ship was anything else.)  For other ships, I can build officers that are fine for other ship types (like move that officer for Onslaught to most low-tech or midline brawling gunships.)

Ziggurat is fun to pilot, and if I want to use that, I am only guaranteed 85 DP left for more ships (and up to 20 to 60 more DP after capturing one or two more points).

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...because then you realize the "best" approach to the game is spamming monofleets of overpowered ships and never bother with the other 95%.
It kind of feels like that already once I get near the end of the game.  Maybe not monofleets, but the majority of ships I use against Ordos would be considered strong or overpowered, even if I do not use them in their best case and/or I do not use the best combat/fleet skills in favor of more QoL skills.

Is gryphon still OP without squalls or hurricanes? Because both are getting nerfed next patch.
I think it was written Squalls do the same damage only if it hits shields, and less against armor/hull.  I doubt Gryphon that uses Squall and Harpoons will be hurt too much, unless Harpoons get hammered too.
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DaShiv

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2022, 05:37:42 PM »

Pure DP-efficiency is a shoddy way to compare ships, because then you realize the "best" approach to the game is spamming monofleets of overpowered ships and never bother with the other 95%.

I don't feel that fleet composition is quite so simple. For example, the general sentiment in this thread is that Onslaughts are currently more DP-efficient than comparable capitals, but an Onslaught monofleet wouldn't be very effective. Likewise, I feel that Afflictor (P), Omens, and Monitors are some of the most DP-efficient frigates, but they make for rather poor monofleets as well. In fact, there are surprisingly few ships that I would consider as viable candidates for monofleets at an Ordos-hunting level.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2022, 05:44:40 PM »

It's almost a given that player fleets have some amount of "self-imposed challenge" in them...
In my case, "self-imposed challenge" is mainly imposed by how much QoL I am willing to give up and/or how much annoyance I am willing to tolerate.  If I need to grind eight to ten more new officers for days whenever I change my fleet, or I permanently lose many story points because of respec (i.e., removing BotB) and/or firing officers with elite skills, then I do not want to do it.  Similarly, I do not want to use chain Afflictors because my piloting skills are not world-class.

I don't feel that fleet composition is quite so simple. For example, the general sentiment in this thread is that Onslaughts are currently more DP-efficient than comparable capitals, but an Onslaught monofleet wouldn't be very effective. Likewise, I feel that Afflictor (P), Omens, and Monitors are some of the most DP-efficient frigates, but they make for rather poor monofleets as well. In fact, there are surprisingly few ships that I would consider as viable candidates for monofleets at an Ordos-hunting level.
I tried Onslaught monofleet, and I think they died against Ordos.  However, I tried double Neural Link Onslaught and those two could defeat some endgame human bounties.  (PPT was a problem against enemies that favor heavy armor, they take too long to wear down.)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 05:47:59 PM by Megas »
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Amoebka

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2022, 06:17:14 PM »

You don't really even need officers for Gryphon spam if you stick to single ordos. And just about any officer groomed for another ship type will perform fine in a Gryphon. Either missile spec or system expertise is already a huge boost, you don't need both. TA is a generic skill you already have on everyone, and the rest don't matter much.

The squall nerf will likely cut them down a little, but the new energy missiles might be even more opressive. Ultimately the issue is that all missiles are balanced around running out, and having x9 of them is never going to be fine. You get 2500 range flux-free weapons that last minutes of constant fire. That's like 10 bomber bays in one 20 dp ship.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2022, 07:10:33 PM »

You don't really even need officers for Gryphon spam if you stick to single ordos.
I was considering double Ordos for maximum +xp% for a fleet (and no need to separate a single Ordos from a clump of several).

I do not need to min-max too hard for single Ordos, but double Ordos is a different beast that I need to carefully pick out ships, s-mods, and officers to stand a chance.

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Either missile spec or system expertise is already a huge boost, you don't need both.
I use both because my current fleet uses only two Gryphons, and if they live long enough, they do need 9x harpoons.  (I use elite Missile Spec. to make up for fewer Gryphons.)  That said, they tend to die more often than not before they fire all 9x missiles, and I can probably get away with only (elite) Missile Spec.
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Salter

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2022, 07:37:15 PM »

Trying to bring huge deathstacks of large ships is exactly the wrong way to approach Ordos fleets. Their faster, more maneuverable ships will just swarm and tear the lumbering hulks apart. You want to have a fleet that can handle their speed, their shields, and their hit-and-run tactics.

I disagree as far as it concerns having to change up your fleet just to fight them if you found something that works and have been using so far up to the particular point in the playthrough. You have already invested 10-ish hours just to get to that point, to turn around and tell the player they need to dump the fleet they have been playing with so far and pick up a specialized fleet with specialized officers and with a new set of ships with s-mods just to fight remnant Ordo's is like a slap to the face really. Thats not to say Remnant's shouldn't be hard, but they are hard for the wrong reasons.

Yes, you could spend the time and credits to produce a specialized fleet just for fighting remnant. Yes you could probably wheel out the Xenorphica just to burst down a station with a fleet of tanky cruisers as backup, but it feels like it goes against what starsector teaches you for the most part when you start out learning the game and how it already heavily encourages streamlining your fleet in a particular direction based on what skills you selected, and respecing just for a new fleet at the end of the game is a very demanding prospect considering it also means s-modding a bunch of ships you are only using for one particular purpose, having to rebuild or even replace your officers with new ones that support the new fleet and so on. Its alot of hoops to jump through just to fight an enemy thats already stacked well against you.

Lumen is weak, not worth 4 DP.  Fulgent has no mobility and no shot range, and probably overpriced at 11 DP.  (Seems more like a 9 DP ship.)  Scintilla is weak (but then again, only Condor is cheaper, and that is weak too).  Brilliant is balanced like Eagle is; not bad, but not great either.  Its main advantage is an alpha core is better than a human officer.

Ive had positive experiences with Fulgent & Scintilla as missile ships in wolfpacks. And brilliant is an exceptionally tanky cruiser. They all just kinda lack the OP to make more out of their generous hulls and weapons without resorting to S-mods to alleviate some OP costs.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 08:24:21 PM by Salter »
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Amoebka

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2022, 07:54:54 PM »

I was considering double Ordos for maximum +xp% for a fleet (and no need to separate a single Ordos from a clump of several).
You could just bring over 240 dp of Gryphons, too. The only real downside to not using both officer skills is running out of ammo faster, and you could rotate reinforcements. D-mods have virtually no effect of Gryphons either, so Derelict Ops can discount them all by 30%.

What I mean is that you don't have to hard commit to Gryphon spam. You can have your roster of officers built for your "normal" fleet, and simply put them into Gryphons when you need to cheese. Some of them will have missile spec, some systems, some both. It will be more than enough, trust me. Gryphons don't need to S-mod anything essential either.
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