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Author Topic: DP vs OP chart  (Read 9971 times)

Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2022, 04:09:56 AM »

And you can keep saying Conquest is weak but repeating the same sentence over and over again doesn't make it true. Putting it and the Legion in the same basket is hilarious.

Conquest underpermorms compared to two gryphon, if in ai hands, and thats a fact. I said that yeah you can do awesome thing with it if you pilot it yourself so it is a cool ship and I love the concept. You can still do better if you fly an Onlaught in nearly every situation tho.
Also I never put it in the same basket as Legion. Legion needs an overhaul or severe dp reduction. Conquest would be fine on 40dp with minor buffs or better ai handling.
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Grievous69

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2022, 04:25:49 AM »

That's such a weird argument, 3 Gryphons are better than a Paragon, so it's obviously weak. And a big weakness of Onslaught is being unable to do anything if you get swarmed of overwhelmed with force, Onslaught eventually dies, while Conquest can use the system to go backwards. You can't really compare such ships directly.

But how would you even go about buffing Conquest? It's in a tricky spot where even a something little extra can push it into the overpowered territory.
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FooF

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2022, 05:29:41 AM »

I’m of the opinion the Onslaught does not need a DP cost increase. While Low Tech was buffed considerably, you’re also paying for it via skills. The base Onslaught was not touched and sans-skills is no better or worse than other 40 DP ships. When skills are factored in, the inherent base values of the Onslaught get multiplied to a larger degree and then you see the power gap.

If you don’t invest heavily into skills for the ship, I don’t see it as all that powerful. It still has a massive blind spot and it’s flux stats are still poor. Your base, Sim-Onslaught can be taken down by a single frigate.

True, a maxed out Onslaught is a sight to behold but that’s only because you have a really high officer or are piloting it yourself with a ton of skills in it. That’s unlike a Paragon that doesn’t need many skills at all to justify its DP cost. I think the Onslaught is in a good place now. Now, if you need to modify other 40 DP options, that’s a another conversation.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2022, 05:42:41 AM »

Conquest, and Odyssey for that matter, used to have better shields when Hardened Shields was stronger.  Back then, those two had just enough durability to slug it out like a battleship, but now their shields are a bit too weak for that.

Today, Conquest can only slug it out like a battleship if it Shunts its shields and build for max armor with hullmods and Polarized Armor.  (Conquest will not have enough OP for ECCM/ExRacks large missiles if it builds for max armor and defense.)  Unfortunately for Conquest, Onslaught does that better, even if viable for Conquest.

The only thing Conquest can do better than Onslaught is long-range bombardment with large missiles because Onslaught is limited to only medium missiles.

If Conquest is limited to backline support while hiding behind tank ships, then that is where two Gryphons can do better (except taking two officers instead of one, but that is not a problem if player already struggles to use eight officers because two capital ships use about 100 or more DP.)

That's such a weird argument, 3 Gryphons are better than a Paragon, so it's obviously weak.
Paragon is a tank ship.  It cannot hang back and lob large missiles at enemies.  (It can hang back and fire HVDs boosted by Ballistic Mastery and lances, but that will not cause damage as fast as a bunch of missiles.)  Paragon is like a more expensive Onslaught.  Dive into a melee and brawl stuff.

I’m of the opinion the Onslaught does not need a DP cost increase. While Low Tech was buffed considerably, you’re also paying for it via skills. The base Onslaught was not touched and sans-skills is no better or worse than other 40 DP ships. When skills are factored in, the inherent base values of the Onslaught get multiplied to a larger degree and then you see the power gap.
Base Onslaught is not that far behind XIV.  I have to drop a luxury hullmod to make up for losing 10 OP, but otherwise, it performs nearly as well.  (Dominator is hit harder by OP loss if I use base instead of XIV.)

All ships need skills to be their best (and those skills can even vary by loadout on the same ship), which is why I have desired cheaper respecs, or at least much faster xp gain (that does not involve soloing everything with Ziggurat).

If I want to pilot a phase ship, I want Phase Coil Turning and (if not Ziggurat) Field Modulation.  If I do not, then I want to get rid of it.  If I pilot anything with ballistics, I want both Ballistics Mastery and Point Defense.  If I pilot a ship with mostly missiles (like Ziggurat with Omega rechargeable missiles), I want Target Analysis and Missile Specialization.
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Amoebka

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2022, 07:45:54 AM »

Except the base Onslaught was touched, and very considerably. It got Heavy Ballistic Integration (+30 OP), better TPCs, and the ballistic rangefinder, which performs far better on Onslaught than any other ship. It's also the only ship that uses Devastators, and those got buffed too. And looking at capitals without officers is dishonest, because no one ever is going to field them without one. You have 9 officers + mercs without leadership skills now, how are you even fielding a 40 dp ship (1/6 of the max battle size by itself) and not giving it officer priority? Where are you even putting them then?
Please don't even get me started on the "frigate 1v1s it in sims".

Onslaught is the most dp-efficient capital in the game right now by a crazy margin.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2022, 08:27:27 AM »

The one ship that badly needs a DP increase is Guardian, even if it is an enemy-only ship.  It is at least as powerful as Radiant, but it costs only 40 DP.  The Derelict bounties with multiple Guardians are hard if I cannot eliminate the Guardians quickly (before the other Derelicts get a chance to swarm and wear down my ships).

Player who lowers map size to cheese most fights does not work on Derelict bounties because Guardians are so cheap.  Three will fit within a 120 DP limit.
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Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2022, 01:25:59 PM »

That's such a weird argument, 3 Gryphons are better than a Paragon, so it's obviously weak.

3 Gryphon could be better in some roles than a Paragon, but what the Paragon does (being a tank and disshing out high energy damage) the Paragon does best, no similar dp amout of smaller ships could perform it better.
The only thing that (ai piloted) conquest can do now is to lob missiles and stay out of truble, which the same dp amout of Gryphon just do plain better.
But i see megas basically said the same.


And a big weakness of Onslaught is being unable to do anything if you get swarmed of overwhelmed with force, Onslaught eventually dies, while Conquest can use the system to go backwards. You can't really compare such ships directly.

Every ship has its weakness, Onslaught needs at least 1 or 2 escort ship. Thats why it does not needs a dp rise.
Conquest does not need escort but it cannot dish out as much damage and cannot survive as long. Problem is even you cannot just assign ships to the conquest to make it do more damage as you can assign ships to the Onslaught to act as PD. Thats why Conquest is at a bad place for 40 dp

But how would you even go about buffing Conquest? It's in a tricky spot where even a something little extra can push it into the overpowered territory.

Yeah, and it should be just as "overpowered" as Onslaught is if it is for the same dp. I think maybe a bit better shield efficency to make up for the nerf of hardened shields. Perhaps wider shields or a little more armor so it doesn't die the secound that it is sorrounded.
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Grievous69

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2022, 01:36:43 PM »

Conquest does not need escort but it cannot dish out as much damage...
My brother in christ would you please take a look at the flux stats, Onslaught has crazy burst damage but the flux bar rises super fast and then you're on defense mode. Conquest can just keep shooting and kiting with more powerful weapons. And that's not even mentioning 2 larges > 4 mediums. If that's not enough damage you somehow missed the whole point of the ship (which honestly happens quite a lot, seeing all the "what do you do with Conquest" help threads).

Buffing its defenses goes against the nature of a battlecruiser, I'd rather see something more unique than simply "squishy ship slightly less squishy now". If it ever happens that is, which I doubt Alex sees Conquest as not up to par with the rest.
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Iannar

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2022, 01:40:56 AM »

Hello!

In my ships and weapons spreadsheet I tried to add some new flux related parameters to show how ships are capable of using their flux offensively. For standardization purposes I armed ships with average OP and flux non PD weapons (I know that value from my spreadsheet :) ) and used missiles in all hybryd mounts.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22955.msg347445#msg347445

I hope it will help in this discussion.
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Thaago

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2022, 05:37:33 PM »

In terms of flux, Ordinance Expertise and Flux Regulation are also possible factors. OE helps Onslaughts a bit more as they have more OP to spend on their weapons (most of the time), but Flux Regulation acts on the base dissipation so gives Onslaughts 60 and Conquests 120.
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Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2022, 02:15:12 AM »

60 flux dissipation is not going to make a difference I the terms of capital ship combat. Or even 120 if you want to compare no flux regulation Onslaught with flux regulation Conquest.
And yeah if we are discussing skills now a lot of skills help Onslaught more than they help Conquest whixh also should be taken into consideration when trying to balance.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 02:16:48 AM by Drazan »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2022, 03:38:47 AM »

Just added new chart: DP vs large weapon mounts.
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Pratapon51

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2022, 04:54:33 AM »

Poor Dominator, forgotten.  :'(
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2022, 05:12:05 AM »

Poor Dominator, forgotten.  :'(
He forgot more than that.  Rampart and Ziggurat off the top of my head.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2022, 10:53:18 AM »

LOL I knew I missed something. Hold on I can fix this, I swear!

*Edit* Okay, fixed version:


I added the guardian as well, no need to thank me ;)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 12:02:02 PM by BigBrainEnergy »
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