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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Sindrian Diktat Changes  (Read 8236 times)

Grievous69

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2022, 12:07:04 AM »

It's absolutely remarkable that he is so dead set on doing something so clumsy and wrong.
This might sound a bit sadistic so please try not to misunderstand what I'm trying to say here. It's very entertaining seeing Alex react in this position because I honestly can't remember if anything like this ever happened in my 7-8 years of following the game. Usually everything is taken pretty well, feedback is majorly positive, with a few concerns here and there, and at worst he's gotten mixed feedback (the new skills system blog posts came to mind). But never have I seen something (even minor as this) completely disliked by the community. Even most "positive" posts just seem like they're accepting it purely because of Alex's stance on others. And yeah the "no you don't understand, it makes sense if you really really think about it" responses felt weird. I honestly don't get why is it so important to leave everything as it was shown in the blog.

The part that bothers me the most is the actual explanation of Special Modifications. Look I seriously don't mind something being *** in a game, but being *** for the sake of being *** because "I said so" is so random. We have a game here that's trying to have realistic relations and backgrounds, yet take a look at this cartoon man with his cartoon faction in a grim future world. It feels suuuper off. You're telling me that changing something about the ships, with the intent to make a certain part better, would have a result of making numerous things straight up worse, and not a single upside? Where does that happen lmao? No matter how stupidly you modify something, it's going to have at least ONE positive thing after the change. Unless of course your engineers are drooling babies and they just beat up ships with hammers. The excuse for it being "not really a d-mod" d-mod is also lame because d-mods at least make your ship cheaper, you know some benefit. Special modifications truly lives up to its "special" name. In all blog posts I've read that was the dumbest part my eyes have come across.

But leave everything as it is, deploy the patch once it's ready, and if the final community reaction after actually playing is still the same, then I expect some change. Otherwise there's no point in commenting blog posts.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2022, 12:14:14 AM »

ya'll just mad Hegemony was right
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Voyager I

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2022, 12:17:38 AM »

The narrative explanation is "passable" in the sense that he clearly believes what he's saying.  Regardless of the lack of verisimilitude or accuracy with respect to any number of historical or recent examples.  Autocratic regimes may have good militaries or bad militaries, but you will never find an example of an autocratic regime where the elite forces are worse equipped and less competent than the regular grunts.  Because the first priority of autocracies is security, including security against internal coups d'etats, and that means force, and that means the elites that are most directly loyal to the leader have to be more capable (and better rewarded) than anybody else in the autocracy.  No amount of charismatic self-delusion can make up for that, and any autocracy that tries such a path doesn't last long at all.

Well, first remember that the Lion's Guard isn't poorly equipped. Andrada's oversight may be detrimental, but they still get the finest hulls the Diktat can produce, and the penalty from Special Modifications is stated to be minimal - certainly less impactful than an actual D-Mod you might find on a ship of the regular fleet. On a similar vein, the hollowness of their 'elite' standing is based on information that the player knows but is not available in the setting of the game. We know the Guard aren't an effective fighting force because we get to look behind the curtain and the creator of the game told us so, but until they bluster their way into a real war and get their noses pushed in the average Sindrian probably doesn't have any reason to question their reputation. This means the reputation itself can enable them to do their work by discouraging any potential threats to Andrada's power, even if the Guard might not be up to the task if they were actually challenged. It's similar to how Sparta was able to create tremendous leverage from their reputation as an elite military force when their actual track record was profoundly average.

I'd imagine that officers of the regular fleet probably also don't get commands with the kind of prominence that would lend themselves to being launching points for coups.
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Grievous69

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2022, 12:56:52 AM »

Well, first remember that the Lion's Guard isn't poorly equipped. Andrada's oversight may be detrimental, but they still get the finest hulls the Diktat can produce, and the penalty from Special Modifications is stated to be minimal
If you read the blog post carefully you'll see that literally any ship not called Executor has standard weapons, on a worse than usual hull... I'd hardly call that "finest". And if the argument for Special modifications is going to be that they're so small, I don't see why it couldn't also have a small upside, weird double standards. Don't even call it like that anymore since it doesn't portray its effects well. What do you think the player's reaction is going to be upon looking up the effects of "Special modifications". They're not called horrible, nonsensical, absurd or silly modifications, they're special, insinuating it at least does something.
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Kakroom

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2022, 12:59:05 AM »

We have a game here that's trying to have realistic relations and backgrounds, yet take a look at this cartoon man with his cartoon faction in a grim future world.

Starsector isn't very realistic and I don't think it really tries to be. I think construing it as a "realistic" world (whatever that means) comes from occasional token gestures at actual science and physics that are mostly there for flavor; the "science" part of the science fiction here is mostly the soft, social kind examining the ways different corners of our society might react to something like AI. At the end of the day Rule of Cool and gameplay concerns (generally) trump logic in (almost) all circumstances.

Except, of course, this one. I can understand why some don't like how it goes against that mold but I mostly like it, ironically, for its take on Wunderwaffen. Video games, even ones specifically about the Second World War and the Nazis, have a tendency to inflate and fetishize fascist technological prowess based on their recurring fascination with nonsensical blue-sky engineering projects. I like how it takes the *** out of that. Governments built on fear, personality and yesmanship aren't better at Getting *** Done because they cut through all the red tape *** plaguing "Democracies." They're just not very good at much except enriching their elites and, occasionally, genocide.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2022, 01:32:27 AM »

Starsector takes inspiration from Alastair Reynolds who takes a pretty cynical and dark take on hard sci-fi. Wunderwaffen have amazing long-term impact but always have trouble with logistics and integration into conventional forces in the short-term. The cool thing about Starsector is it focuses on both - yeah the Diktat pretty boys are mostly there for show. Buuut get some of their superweapons into the hands of people who know what they're doing (us, the players!) and amazing things are going to happen. Alternatively, get the right admiral in command of some Lions Guard ships and the D-mod is actually a net win...

Grievous69, the purpose of "special modifications" that come with a spiffy paintjob is cohesion and pride. Morale, in other words. In some warmaking metagames where the dominant strategy is to make the enemy rout before your side does (anything predating modern artillery) or ideally before your side gets into bayonet range bright pretty colors and useless but intimidating flash were all the rage.

There's plenty of examples where brightly dressed elite troops had their bluff called. The result consists of their shell-shocked opponents wandering through the wreckage, looting dead bodies, poking and prodding the best equipment the enemy had, and going "huh, so it was all just for looks all along?" It's always has been.

Unless of course your engineers are drooling babies and they just beat up ships with hammers.
Trick to understanding the modern bureaucratic workforce is that junior employees think engineers are wizards who can do no wrong. Mid-level employees think engineers are drooling babies beating stuff up with hammers. Senior employees agree, but try to get stuff done anyway.

It's pretty amazing to see an Alastair-tier blackpill on brightly colored pretty boys roll through the community. Generated some strong responses. ;D
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Big Bee

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2022, 01:53:46 AM »

literally any ship not called Executor has standard weapons, on a worse than usual hull...

While I guess it makes sense to limit secret weapons like that, I still think it's weird on just how limited Alex intends to make them. If they were just Lion's Guard exclusives, then sure. If they were just Executor exclusives so they could appear in the regular military too, sure. But to have them be exclusive to Lion's Guard Executors only while NEVER appearing on the black market (and IIRC military markets even with a commission?), well, that just feels a bit much.

Seems like all of that content will just be completely irrelevant and hidden unless you specifically go to fight the Lion's Guard for them. You can even get limited XIV ships that need lost Domain-era manufacturing or whatever with a commission and high enough rep, so it just feels excessive.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2022, 02:08:48 AM »

It's a kinetic energy slot. It's a heavy blaster kinetic energy slot. I'll climb down into hell and fight satan himself for it.
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Grievous69

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2022, 02:17:13 AM »

Cope harder while the gameplay suffers, surely it's going to be worth it.

@Big Bee
Exactly my point, the whole faction exists so the player may loot 2 exclusive weapon specifically from a minor force from a minor faction and ONLY if you find an Executor there. Then pray to RNG to see what weapons you get. That sounds horrible, something you'd find in a MMO or some mobile game. Reduced a faction to a grind fest. If you can honestly defend that from a gameplay perspective then virtually anything goes from that point on.

Quote
It's a kinetic energy slot. It's a heavy blaster kinetic energy slot. I'll climb down into hell and fight satan himself for it.
Weapon that crucial should be a part of the base set of weapons, then maybe an elite niche version should be a reward for fighting them. But it seems it's not going to be that good, which I'm very glad for. Gating a must have weapon on some high tech ships in such a way seems so bad from a gameplay standpoint.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2022, 02:18:32 AM »

Nah, energy not having damage types is what keeps ballistics good. This is an awesome way to tie combat mechanics into lore.
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UngaBunga

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2022, 02:38:54 AM »

What I think a big reason for the negative reaction is how they're phrased, and how that relates to the rest of the world.

Starsector is a universe where pirates and Pathers are capable of turning civilian crafts into terrifying weapons of war with benefits that well outweigh their negatives despite having no possibility to enforce central quality standards, yet a dictatorship with leagues more resources, with an experienced engineer corp that has generally been shown as competent militarily, cannot implement what comes across as basically a request for reinforced bulkheads.

I understand that the description is clearly supposed to be written from the perspective of a Diktat officer, and thus downplays Andrada's engineering incompetence, but given his role, his general competency in that role up to this point, and the surprisingly competent pirate and terrorist engineers in the universe, it does not make the sense for something ultimately so small and easily done for everyone else to backfire this spectacularly.

I could get this if the changes were ultimately hurried as to not displease the Great Leader in Space and designed in such a way to aesthetically please him and his ego rather than actually serve their function, but this does not come across in the text at all. Nor is it easy to do so while still writing from the same perspective.

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Vind

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2022, 02:57:54 AM »

    Game needs smart characters to be believable. Dictators with inefficient personal guard wont survive for long and out of character so to speak. And if other factions would be changes similarly to some cliche my game immersion will be ruined forever.
    If Andrada supposed to be evil dictator he must be efficient no matter the cost in lives/anything because true evil is perfect efficiency without morals.
If this is a dictator clown show then how the polity survived for so long without Andrada being assasinated? Persian league is not a charity to propel some regime for nothing.
    This change just ruins the immersion for me. You cant survive in star sector by being dumb but i guess this is a start.
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Igncom1

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2022, 03:11:14 AM »

The praetorian guard, and 99% of all monarchs, might disagree with that sentiment.

You can be incompetent as hell and still be in charge from the actions of competent underlings.

Gameplay wise it might not be too fun to have a debuff on a ship for no reason, lore wise it makes more sense then everyone being the best of the best.

If you think dictators survive by being the best of the best, then I have a bridge to sell you.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2022, 03:25:59 AM »

If you read the blog post carefully you'll see that literally any ship not called Executor has standard weapons, on a worse than usual hull... I'd hardly call that "finest". And if the argument for Special modifications is going to be that they're so small, I don't see why it couldn't also have a small upside, weird double standards. Don't even call it like that anymore since it doesn't portray its effects well. What do you think the player's reaction is going to be upon looking up the effects of "Special modifications". They're not called horrible, nonsensical, absurd or silly modifications, they're special, insinuating it at least does something.
The Lion's Guard as a whole get access to the Diktat's weapons program, not just the Executor. Executors in LG fleets merely get a double-helping of their weapons program.

Also according to one of Alex's tweets, Lion's Guard fleets have a quality bonus, meaning fewer d-mods than regular Diktat patrols (not including the Special Modifications d-mod).

Speaking of, the "Special" in "Special Modifications" is more tongue-in-cheek than literal. You'd be able to tell at once glance, especially considering the description.

If it had a bonus, it wouldn't be consistent with any of the other d-mods in the game, or you wouldn't be able to remove it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 03:31:02 AM by The Soldier »
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Serenitis

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Re: Sindrian Diktat Changes
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2022, 03:28:57 AM »

it does not make the sense for something ultimately so small and easily done for everyone else to backfire this spectacularly
Quote
I could get this if the changes were ultimately hurried as to not displease the Great Leader in Space and designed in such a way to aesthetically please him and his ego rather than actually serve their function, but this does not come across in the text at all.

It absolutely does though.
Andrada fancies himself as the infallible strongman who can succeed at any task and do no wrong. Ever.
He might have been an effective leader in the past, but he's spent too long getting high off his own supply, with a ton of 'yes people' enabling him.
Dear Leader's special 'assistance' being completely detrimental, with the true believers cheering it hoping for a chance to get thier tongues dirty, and the rank-and-file quietly hoping to never be assigned to the 'special' ships that will absolutely kill them if they ever see action is 100% on point.

tl;dr
Andrada thinks the changes improve the ships. And no-one is going to question him, because to do so would be... Unhealthy.
Criticising/Contradicting a dictator is not known for leading to a long and trouble-free life.

There's a whole heaping pile of leaders just from the 20th century alone to model this kind of behaviour from.
Andrada is a common(ish) Argentinian name, if you need a starting point.
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