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Author Topic: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2  (Read 37946 times)

smithney

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #360 on: July 01, 2022, 02:21:45 PM »

I know there are lore reasons for it, but hearing that the Persean League will lose access to the gauss cannon (as part of their focus on autocannons, so no HVD/Guass), which is essential for the Conquest in my opinion because of how fragile it is, feels like a real kick in the gut. What's it supposed to do, wander into range of other ships that are more heavily armored and shielded and just get killed because it has no range to stay at a safe distance? Completely neuters the idea kiting when it can't even stay out of range while being able to engage.
Sorry but how does PL getting slightly gimped uniquified prevent you, the player, from looting the Gauss elsewhere and putting it on Conquest yourself? Same for rockets on Gryphon. Is this some Nexerelin talk that I'm not getting?
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Igncom1

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #361 on: July 01, 2022, 02:50:22 PM »

I think he's referring to the usual default builds for the conquest that have always been some variation of long range artillery boat.

A PL Conquest is likely to be a far different, and less intimidating, beast without those kinds of weapons.
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Histidine

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #362 on: July 02, 2022, 06:32:46 PM »

Mark IX etc. Conquest builds work plenty fine if you're not trying to 1v1 battleships.
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Brainwright

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #363 on: July 02, 2022, 09:27:27 PM »

Yah, low-flux Conquest builds are pretty good.  Though I'd probably go for an assault gun plus heavy gun with squalls rather than Mark XIVs.  You can then place PD in the med slots and not worry about much else.
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Amazigh

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #364 on: July 02, 2022, 11:24:19 PM »

Mark IX combined with the new DEMs might actually be a really potent loadout on the conquest. (hard to be certain without DEM statlines)

Lots of Kinetics from the MKIX (and maybe HAC/HVD backing them up for more kinetic damage?)
And then you have the DEM Beams to tear through armour.

Would definitely be a very good "punch-down" loadout, and maybe even decent against other capitals depending on how the DEMs perform.
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #365 on: July 05, 2022, 11:56:52 PM »

Both squall and hurricane are nerfed again next patch. Wouldn't be surprised to learn harpoon is on the chopping block either. League is merely metagaming.

Hydra solves one of the main issues with Conquest - being unable to hit fast targets with main cannons. Double shot will likely delete a frigate outright.
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Megas

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #366 on: July 06, 2022, 05:48:18 AM »

Both squall and hurricane are nerfed again next patch. Wouldn't be surprised to learn harpoon is on the chopping block either. League is merely metagaming.
Watch Harpoons get 1500 range next to match Breach, and maybe Pods reverted to two shots per burst like they originally were (which was weak back in the day).  Atropos is already the short-ranged Harpoon.

The main problem with Gryphon is officers with both tier 5 Combat skills (that the player cannot get without eight points in Combat) for 9x capacity to fuel Squalls and Harpoons much longer than other ships.  I guess a mono-fleet can get by with 6x capacity.  I would not be surprised if Gryphon gets a 5+ DP raise to weaken mono-fleet.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #367 on: July 06, 2022, 06:22:20 AM »

Even without a mono-fleet I don't bother with systems expertise on gryphons, x6 is enough. The only way I would go for x9 is if I put hardened subsystems on them as well, because you usually run out of ppt around the same time as missiles. But at that point what are you fighting? Triple ordos?
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #368 on: July 06, 2022, 06:44:47 AM »

Watch Harpoons get 1500 range next to match Breach, and maybe Pods reverted to two shots per burst like they originally were (which was weak back in the day).  Atropos is already the short-ranged Harpoon.

The main problem with Gryphon is officers with both tier 5 Combat skills (that the player cannot get without eight points in Combat) for 9x capacity to fuel Squalls and Harpoons much longer than other ships.  I guess a mono-fleet can get by with 6x capacity.  I would not be surprised if Gryphon gets a 5+ DP raise to weaken mono-fleet.
I would rather Gryphon's system simply became a hardcoded exception to sysexp than see officers/missiles gimped to account for one outlier case. To use a vogue gamedev term, Gryphon "limits the design space" for missiles.
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smithney

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #369 on: July 06, 2022, 12:57:09 PM »

I would rather Gryphon's system simply became a hardcoded exception to sysexp than see officers/missiles gimped to account for one outlier case. To use a vogue gamedev term, Gryphon "limits the design space" for missiles.
It's a good point that Gryphon's system is ultimately uninspired and parasitic. Would it be too much to ask for a new system for Gryphon? :^)

IDK, maybe one that would increase the travel speed and damage of the single next missile/salvo?
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #370 on: July 08, 2022, 06:58:00 AM »

I would rather Gryphon's system simply became a hardcoded exception to sysexp than see officers/missiles gimped to account for one outlier case. To use a vogue gamedev term, Gryphon "limits the design space" for missiles.
It's a good point that Gryphon's system is ultimately uninspired and parasitic. Would it be too much to ask for a new system for Gryphon? :^)

IDK, maybe one that would increase the travel speed and damage of the single next missile/salvo?
Wouldn't it being restricted to a single missile/salvo force you to use linked fire to not waste the effects of the ability?
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PizzaInSpace

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #371 on: July 08, 2022, 08:32:03 AM »

well there's no telling what the devs would do if they changed the gryphons ability. My idea would be giving the persean league a unique variant of the drover which has a built-in hullmod known as a "ammunition manufactoring forge" and would have a unique lpc called the "pack rat" the goal would be that this drover can resupply ships with missile or magazine based weapons but the downside would be this variant drover will not have any means to defend itself and would cost roughly less to deploy than an average drover. It's special ability would be the same as a regular drover but the pack rats would be slow as a cobra.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #372 on: July 08, 2022, 10:50:19 AM »

well there's no telling what the devs would do if they changed the gryphons ability. My idea would be giving the persean league a unique variant of the drover which has a built-in hullmod known as a "ammunition manufactoring forge" and would have a unique lpc called the "pack rat" the goal would be that this drover can resupply ships with missile or magazine based weapons but the downside would be this variant drover will not have any means to defend itself and would cost roughly less to deploy than an average drover. It's special ability would be the same as a regular drover but the pack rats would be slow as a cobra.
Sounds like it would be the gryphon issue but worse. Then again it is not like i have seen it in action. The idea of non-combatant support ships is interesting though.
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smithney

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #373 on: July 08, 2022, 12:20:45 PM »

well there's no telling what the devs would do if they changed the gryphons ability. My idea would be giving the persean league a unique variant of the drover which has a built-in hullmod known as a "ammunition manufactoring forge" and would have a unique lpc called the "pack rat" the goal would be that this drover can resupply ships with missile or magazine based weapons but the downside would be this variant drover will not have any means to defend itself and would cost roughly less to deploy than an average drover. It's special ability would be the same as a regular drover but the pack rats would be slow as a cobra.
I think it's cool that missiles are limited; big immediate power wasted if you miss the opportunity. In fact I feel like they are too safe to use this patch, if optimizing Gryphon to the maximum isn't even worth it. That's one of the reason I called out for a new system for Gryphon. The current one doesn't feel as impactful if you start to see it as an EMR button. It used to feel unique when rockets were held back by their relative scarcity, but at the time they were overshadowed by bomber spam, unfortunately.

Which, btw, makes me wish bombers were impractical besides cracking capitals and sieging stations :P
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PizzaInSpace

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #374 on: July 09, 2022, 01:46:15 AM »

well there's no telling what the devs would do if they changed the gryphons ability. My idea would be giving the persean league a unique variant of the drover which has a built-in hullmod known as a "ammunition manufactoring forge" and would have a unique lpc called the "pack rat" the goal would be that this drover can resupply ships with missile or magazine based weapons but the downside would be this variant drover will not have any means to defend itself and would cost roughly less to deploy than an average drover. It's special ability would be the same as a regular drover but the pack rats would be slow as a cobra.
I think it's cool that missiles are limited; big immediate power wasted if you miss the opportunity. In fact I feel like they are too safe to use this patch, if optimizing Gryphon to the maximum isn't even worth it. That's one of the reason I called out for a new system for Gryphon. The current one doesn't feel as impactful if you start to see it as an EMR button. It used to feel unique when rockets were held back by their relative scarcity, but at the time they were overshadowed by bomber spam, unfortunately.

Which, btw, makes me wish bombers were impractical besides cracking capitals and sieging stations :P

Good point but it would be nice for the gryphons to have some sort of damage buff rather than some maneuverability drives or fast racks reload. even adding a unique build in hullmod to increase the range of the missiles similar to an advance targeting core. the problem for me when using gryphons especially if its piloted by an ai is that they can get swarmed by frigates and destroyers before it even can use its full arsenal to bear. Since there isn't much to do late game other than exploring the entire sector and farming ai cores for your empire but with the way the ai just spams ordo fleets comprising of fulgents, brilliants, and radients I resorted to editing the ziggurat to have the high mote attractor to even fight them at all. Once the next patch is released trying to utilize an entire missile based fleet sounds fun
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