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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2 (04/30/22)

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Antelope Syrup

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #285 on: May 13, 2022, 09:51:26 AM »

Instead, everyone just honed in on The Diktat.

1. The DEMs and Pegasus had already been revealed one Alex's twitter

2. There isn't much to say about them, because everyone agrees that they are awesome.

So many people (myself included) have been complaining about the Sindrian Diktat changes because of their impact on the gameplay. The Hegemony has the XIV, Tri-tach has a large, mostly exclusive roster of high tech ships. The Church got two new capitals, both with very unique aspects, and the Persean league has an entire class of unique weapons. The Diktat? A worse version of another factions capital, and a bunch of D skins. The Diktat has been left largely generic, and their one unique aspect serves no purpose besides to make them look bad from a story perspective. It doesnt help that this change is boring and useless to players. (Besides the new weapons, which just reduce the Diktat to "the faction you farm for these two weapons")

TLDR: Every faction has a unique aspect, but the Diktat's is literally just a group of D skins; We had allready seen all of the other changes in the blog post beforehand.
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Big Bee

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #286 on: May 13, 2022, 10:18:32 AM »

Yeah, all the other stuff is great, not much else to say about it. Personally I just dislike the the Diktat changes on the gameplay-side by principle. My issue is ironically the lack of uniqueness in what is meant to make the faction more unique.

The LG ship variants look cool aesthetically, but gameplay-wise they are made 'unique' in pretty much the most boring way possible. They're just direct downgrades compared to their base versions with nothing that would make them *feel* unique or interesting in any way. Sure, they're not primarily *for* the player, but since the player *can* get them, and will *want* to get them because of their skins, they will be disappointed to find that they are only worse than their base variants, with no upsides.

If they really need to be at least somewhat worse than the base hulls overall, that could still be done while giving them some variety to be more interesting very easily. Or just break even by not making solar shielding built-in so that after the d-mod is removed, it'll be the same as the base hull with a different skin.

Personally this won't really affect me either way as I usually play modded with the vanilla factions disabled so that I could use more mod factions without dropping to 5fps, but still, it's the principle of it. This is kind of a bad choice compared to the usual high-quality stuff Alex adds to the game, so it stands out more as well.
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SapphireSage

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #287 on: May 13, 2022, 11:19:23 AM »

Because I think the Diktat changes very heavily divert from the kind of changes other factions were getting. There isn't much to say about the other changes because they all look cool and feel justified.
But while every faction has a very distinct playstyle the Diktat, besides one ship with special weapons that can only be found in a small selected part of their navy, is the most default faction in the game.

To be honest I don't think the Diktat will even perform worse now. They mostly will use 80% of the same stuff in their navy they have used before, just with the addition of the Executor. And while the LG have their Special modifications it's just a small numbers change that won't affect the performance that much to be crucial. Which is in my opinion the issue because their most unique aspect will be nearly completely irrelevant during gameplay.

I wouldn't necessarily say that 's true. Despite their main political opponent being the Hegemony, Lion's Guards ships and weapons are ironically perfect stepping stones for fighting Remnants or Tri-Tachyon for any players willing to *** off a convenient stocking faction to acquire them. Midline ships tend to have enough full range mobility with their systems to keep pace with the nominally fast high tech ships for maintaining optimal distance and they tend to have enough Ballistics to outrange and sufficiently pressure their efficient shields. They also have nice energy weapon slots for additional self-defense when any of them inevitably get close enough to engage their guns. Energy weapon slots to maybe equip a couple new fancy Kinetic, anti-shield energy weapons perhaps to drive the AI back by spiking their flux suddenly for when they *do* get in range. Not to mention that all their in-built Solar Shields means that all the LG ships essentially have a built-in "Takes 20% less damage from Remnants aside from the Brilliants waving their Gauss Rifles around".

Don't get me wrong. I love the DEM (and the pegasus) a lot and are going to climb on top of my favourite missiles that i am probably always going to use in some capacity alongside the Pilum (I also love the new Pilum Catapult too!).

New pilums are pretty cool, and I will say that they likely do much better for their intended role in their current state of the game but I did have a fondness for the old pilums when I did a "Vanilla Carriers Only" playthrough in 0.9. Had an Astral, 2 Herons, 3 Moras, and 5 Condors all with as many Pilums they could hold to saturate the battlespace, put the enemy AI on edge with all the HE free floating around menacingly, and tie up their PD as much as possible to help protect all the fighters making their rounds. Tab screen was mostly little green triangles floating around making it hard to see what all was going on.

On the case of the Diktat i did had something to say and thus decided to make an account to say something about it as it did sit wrong with me. Again, don't get me wrong. I know that the Diktat is messed up all over the place.

This kinda made me curious on if I actually had it right or not since I was mostly just typing stuff and so I decided to skim through the topic a bit. Turned out in the first half the newer accounts were mostly in support of the Diktat changes, while it changes somewhat in the later half to some in favor and some against. Also turns out that most of the vocal complaints about it were from longer lived accounts than not. Probably got it in their head that the Diktat were destined for more for years since no other faction really has a separate patrol group like the Paw Patrol and how in the past they used High-Tech ships vice the regular military's mid-tech focus and that more currently they apparently have more doctrine points than the other factions' patrols. When I first started playing I used Askonia as a convenient fueling point, but at least since I found out that punching patrols made it so the factions spawned more patrols in the area was a thing I've been using them as a fun punching bag since all their power is consolidated in one locale making it so that punching them repeatedly both caused enormous amounts of enormous fleets to spawn in one gauntlet filled storm of metal and energy while also not making it too inconvenient to travel around the sector since, I mean, if I avoid Askonia then I avoided trouble, nbd.

I just go there to buy tasty lobster (kinda wish i could go and eat some of my cargo even if it were to do nothing haha!), stock up on fuel (apparently sindrian fuel isn't such a good deal anymore, is that true?), and get credits from helping clean up the latest pirate activity incident (always fun).

Despite being an export exclusive to the Diktat, lobster never really seemed all that lucrative. Though it might be one of the higher earners if you wanted to be an more ethical trader and not smuggle hard drugs and weapons around thanks to all the no doubt corrupt Sindrian officials abusing their power to legally seize tons of lobsters and illegally sell them to you on the cheap bypassing all tariffs and profit record keeping in the process. I generally make my way through exciting Bounty Hunting and exploration missions though, rather than trade. Something still needs to change with regards to smuggling to the Pathers being so wildly lucrative to everything else in the game compared to its nigh complete lack of risk imo.

With regards to resupplying, both Nachiketa and Sindria have a Synchrotron core. Unlike Sindria however, Nachiketa often has at least 1000 fuel at excess level prices making them cost far less than anyone else, including Sindria who seems to sell close to base price. Its also cheaper too once you go past that initial 1000 excess fuel before it catches up to Askonian prices. Chicomoztoc OTOH usually has some supplies and crew for cheap since they're the largest planet in the game and also happen to be equipped with a Pristine Nanoforge meaning that they supply more supplies than anyone can possibly need. That said, the added price you have in Sindria can be thought of as the price of convenience. Going to two planets in two separate, albeit nearby, star systems takes a bit of time that can rapidly add up doing it every time you enter the Core. They're also located in the SE corner of the core worlds for better or worse vs. Askonia being smack dab in the consistent center. Lastly, dealing with the Hegemony for cheaper supplies and fuel also means having to put up with the Hegemony's hatred for the use of AI cores or Free Ports. And if you *really* want to do a saturated bombing that basically means no more dealing with the Hegemony full stop. So yes, Nachiketa and Chicomoztoc are ultimately much cheaper than going to Sindria, especially when dealing with bulk, but there's also a fair amount of "hidden costs" and inconveniences to go along with that.

Guess it comes up as wrong when your first post is about being upset about it.

Looked up my first post to see what it was and it was apparently a tech support issue about the Uhlan Laser not autofiring on Station modules when they were introduced written in the format of a semi-formal letter, so I guess I was just a huge nerd 5 years ago. Well, still doesn't hurt to say thanks and wish others good days. So I hope yous twos has a good day today.


Edit: ninja'd
TLDR: Every faction has a unique aspect, but the Diktat's is literally just a group of D skins; We had allready seen all of the other changes in the blog post beforehand.
Yeah, all the other stuff is great, not much else to say about it. Personally I just dislike the the Diktat changes on the gameplay-side by principle. My issue is ironically the lack of uniqueness in what is meant to make the faction more unique.

As an idea, what if the military was split up with all three epochs? Since his split was only 20 years ago The Regular military can have low-tech and mid-line being split between what remains of the task force he was given then by the Heg and the ships he's being provided by the Persean League now, while the LG's will be mostly Midline, but can also contain a few high-tech ships, preferably no larger than Frigate-sized or Destroyer at the largest to represent Philip's desire for energy weapons and high-tech toys. But also without a way to easily acquire them as the Tri-Tachyon likely wants to hold onto what few assets they have left after two lost wars. Then the Sindrian forces can somewhat represent all facets of the Sector in their central location based on their unique situation compared to the other 4.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 11:30:41 AM by SapphireSage »
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Big Bee

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #288 on: May 13, 2022, 11:36:14 AM »

As an idea, what if the military was split up with all three epochs? Since his split was only 20 years ago The Regular military can have low-tech and mid-line being split between what remains of the task force he was given then by the Heg and the ships he's being provided by the Persean League now, while the LG's will be mostly Midline, but can also contain a few high-tech ships, preferably no larger than Frigate-sized or Destroyer at the largest to represent Philip's desire for energy weapons and high-tech toys. But also without a way to easily acquire them as the Tri-Tachyon likely wants to hold onto what few assets they have left after two lost wars. Then the Sindrian forces can somewhat represent all facets of the Sector in their central location based on their unique situation compared to the other 4.

Eh, them having everything kinda feels much. They would not be unique at all. Honestly a lot of the suggestions I've been seeing feel kinda... drastic? Like, they don't really sound feasible as they go quite far from what Alex is doing. If he ends up changing stuff based on the feedback, it'll probably be something simple that would need little changes from what's already being done, instead of a completely new direction.
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #289 on: May 14, 2022, 12:29:56 AM »

I wouldn't necessarily say that 's true. Despite their main political opponent being the Hegemony, Lion's Guards ships and weapons are ironically perfect stepping stones for fighting Remnants or Tri-Tachyon for any players willing to *** off a convenient stocking faction to acquire them.
They aren't perfect for anything at all. You can get normal midline hulls far more easily and cheaply, and put solar shielding on them yourself. Remember, it isn't built-in, it's built-in at full OP cost. This isn't a situational buff at the price of versatility (which would be good), it's a strict downgrade.
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vladokapuh

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #290 on: May 14, 2022, 06:45:39 AM »

I dont mind it too much how it is, but imo it would be more interesting if the solar shielding was free, but instead the other hullmod be non removable, that would mean they are not strict upgrades or downgrades over normal ones, but sidegrades that still can be better in some situations (eg fighting high tech or remnants the free solar shielding would be a bigger plus, than the hullmod is minus)
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Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #291 on: May 14, 2022, 09:59:08 AM »

I dont mind it too much how it is, but imo it would be more interesting if the solar shielding was free, but instead the other hullmod be non removable, that would mean they are not strict upgrades or downgrades over normal ones, but sidegrades that still can be better in some situations (eg fighting high tech or remnants the free solar shielding would be a bigger plus, than the hullmod is minus)
That would make so much more sense. Special Modifications doesn't even function like a normal d-mod, so why would it be removable? Keep the penalty for flavour, and you'll have a ship that's a sidegrade, I think that's in line with what the blog post entails, the ships will still be less flexible than a generic midline hull.
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Antelope Syrup

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #292 on: May 14, 2022, 11:13:22 AM »

I dont mind it too much how it is, but imo it would be more interesting if the solar shielding was free, but instead the other hullmod be non removable, that would mean they are not strict upgrades or downgrades over normal ones, but sidegrades that still can be better in some situations (eg fighting high tech or remnants the free solar shielding would be a bigger plus, than the hullmod is minus)

I agree, this is probably the best and easiest compromise. I still think Andrada would’ve changed his ships in larger ways, like he did with the executor. I’d personally prefer this change + alternate mounts and systems as other have suggested.
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Sarissofoi

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #293 on: May 15, 2022, 03:54:47 AM »

Just read blogs and logged in to write that i don't like new Andrada lore and that Lion guard ships are now hot garbage.

HiddenPorpoise

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #294 on: May 15, 2022, 05:17:52 AM »

For example, that supreme executor D-mod. If the focus was on making the ship more survivable, especially for the crew, we should see that actually happen. The execution has *increased* crew casualties, which isn't just a misguided idea, its a box of short-circuiting gamma cores for an engineering team.
What's actually going on in the fluff is that anyone in a passageway that takes a direct hit from an anti ship scale weapon is going to cease to exist with or without a liner. The liner will do its job and stop knock on effects, ricochets and the like. Even if conduits burst and spill into that passage the only people that are going to be in there are damage control crews that are equipped for it. So in most situations the liners just slow down bulky damage control teams and make medvac teams more awkward around corners. Even if the liners are saving some people they are a hindrance for more.

Andrada was brilliant in statecraft, tactics, and logistics so it's not a leap in his mind that he'd have complete understanding of the nuances of damage control and he's not exactly in a state to be asking for help at this point.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in game the Lion's Guard doesn't actually do much of the Diktat's fighting. Which kind of implies the people tasked with the actual operation of Askonia's defenses have found a perfect solution where Andrada gets to play with his toys but his elite overhauls don't need to actually be standard.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #295 on: May 15, 2022, 06:18:17 AM »

EDIT: And i accidentally posted this before finishing the post properly my bad.

New pilums are pretty cool, and I will say that they likely do much better for their intended role in their current state of the game but I did have a fondness for the old pilums when I did a "Vanilla Carriers Only" playthrough in 0.9. Had an Astral, 2 Herons, 3 Moras, and 5 Condors all with as many Pilums they could hold to saturate the battlespace, put the enemy AI on edge with all the HE free floating around menacingly, and tie up their PD as much as possible to help protect all the fighters making their rounds. Tab screen was mostly little green triangles floating around making it hard to see what all was going on.
Same. The old pilum saturation was pretty cool...  but you had to dedicate a good chunk of your fleet to make pilums work. New pilums are a good change i approve of even if i miss the old ones.


What's actually going on in the fluff is that anyone in a passageway that takes a direct hit from an anti ship scale weapon is going to cease to exist with or without a liner. The liner will do its job and stop knock on effects, ricochets and the like. Even if conduits burst and spill into that passage the only people that are going to be in there are damage control crews that are equipped for it. So in most situations the liners just slow down bulky damage control teams and make medvac teams more awkward around corners. Even if the liners are saving some people they are a hindrance for more.

Andrada was brilliant in statecraft, tactics, and logistics so it's not a leap in his mind that he'd have complete understanding of the nuances of damage control and he's not exactly in a state to be asking for help at this point.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in game the Lion's Guard doesn't actually do much of the Diktat's fighting. Which kind of implies the people tasked with the actual operation of Askonia's defenses have found a perfect solution where Andrada gets to play with his toys but his elite overhauls don't need to actually be standard.
I don't know why but this post made me think... What if the Special Modifications didn't stopped at the blast-proof pannelling? What if there were more of these... not as good on practice advice by Andrada? What if they did something positive at the cost of something going slightly wrong? The idea in short is that the Special Modifications becomes something like the XIV battlegroup mod but with drawbacks making it properly a sidegrade or something you go ''That's kinda neat but i am not entirely sure if it is worth it'' instead of ''wow this is bad''. Keeping the solar shielding built in at a cost or free or whatever would be neat and would be logical too but that's just me being a solar shielding enthusiast that loves riding hyperspace storms.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 06:31:26 AM by Doctorhealsgood »
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Atlasreturns

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #296 on: May 16, 2022, 05:22:48 PM »

I wouldn't necessarily say that 's true. Despite their main political opponent being the Hegemony, Lion's Guards ships and weapons are ironically perfect stepping stones for fighting Remnants or Tri-Tachyon for any players willing to *** off a convenient stocking faction to acquire them.
LG ships are still completely Basekit mid-line ships. There isn't really anything you can get here that you can't acquire with a commission to the League.
I think the Super Weapons are nice but they will most likely only shine in some niche build and I have the suspicion the same will apply to the Executor class. 
Probably got it in their head that the Diktat were destined for more for years since no other faction really has a separate patrol group like the Paw Patrol and how in the past they used High-Tech ships vice the regular military's mid-tech focus and that more currently they apparently have more doctrine points than the other factions' patrols.
I feel like even for a parade army the Lions Guard should have something to show for itself. To be honest when looking at Diktat, without reading the Lore Entries,  I always imagined them being some autocratic, fuel to everyone exporting micro-state that lacks heavy industry yet has funds to buy whatever. And therefore I'd guess the Lions Guard to get whatever is the available most high-tech on the market even without being really able to use it. It's why I think High-Tech would have fitted better to show the difference between the two forces.
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Üstad

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #297 on: May 16, 2022, 06:08:52 PM »

I dont mind it too much how it is, but imo it would be more interesting if the solar shielding was free, but instead the other hullmod be non removable, that would mean they are not strict upgrades or downgrades over normal ones, but sidegrades that still can be better in some situations (eg fighting high tech or remnants the free solar shielding would be a bigger plus, than the hullmod is minus)

I agree, this is probably the best and easiest compromise. I still think Andrada would’ve changed his ships in larger ways, like he did with the executor. I’d personally prefer this change + alternate mounts and systems as other have suggested.
Alternate mounts is a must but I insist on erratic shipsystems. Imagine LG Eagle has quantum disruptor with longer cooldown, it fits the good on paper narrative and would really uniquify Sindrian Diktat. Of course the quantum disruptor was just an example. I think this really suits the lore and would make more interesting gameplay I think just alternate mounts or free solar shield would not make them more unique.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 06:17:02 PM by Üstad »
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Kidzin

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #298 on: May 17, 2022, 03:09:45 PM »

Since I decided to make this my first post let me first say: thank you for making such an unique, ambitious and honestly fantastic game like Starsector.

Now to the reason of me actually sharing my thoughts, while it's great there will be more clear distinction between factions - I'm all for that, but I do find the chosen direction for Diktat rather uninspired and over-used. If Andrada is indeed "intelligent, charismatic, yet prone to narcissistic excess" it makes perfect sense to have sort of an silly upkeep based d-mods and such to represent those megalomaniac tendencies. But I very much disagree with making their unique weapons and ship modifications be essentially contradicting and penalizing. I hope you can reconsider those parts of their identity.
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Voyager I

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #299 on: May 17, 2022, 07:19:38 PM »

Part of the backlash may be that unless you got really deep into the lore, Andrada honestly didn't stand out as being spectacularly bad. Like, he wasn't good, but it's a sci-fi dystopia. The Hegemony is a domineering autocracy in its own right, the Tri-Tachs don't appear to have any concept of ethics or morality and are constantly sneaking out the back door to conduct experiments that threaten all live in the sector, and the League is a militarized country club for despots and oligarchs (to say nothing of the honest-to-god pirates and terrorists running around everywhere). The Church arguably comes off the best by only discreetly supporting the aforementioned terrorists, if you can forgive them being tremendous nags. Without going trawling through the wiki, my recollection from following the game for over a decade is that most of these factions are knee-deep in warcrimes and credible accusations of / attempts at genocide, so Andrada probably blowing up a planet wasn't all that special.

To put it succinctly: I was here posting through the backlash when deployment costs got added to the game, read all the blog posts and patch notes, go through the wiki semi-regularly, and it still came as a surprise to me when this blog said that Andrada was supposed to be appreciably more of a bastard than the rest of the factions. I knew that he was a despotic jerk with blood on his hands, but it never made much of an impression since so was everyone else.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 07:22:29 PM by Voyager I »
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