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Author Topic: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2  (Read 37928 times)

Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2022, 11:07:17 AM »

Well the difference from Omega weapons is that those are finite. You could theoretically get as much Gigacannons and Kinetic blasters as you want, although it would be a massive chore. My only concern is those weapons will never see use in early and mid game. By the time you can waltz into a system and take on capital fleets, you'll have top of the line weaponry. So they either have to be very good all around or extremely niche that they make certain ships crazy strong.
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Megas

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2022, 11:09:41 AM »

Well the difference from Omega weapons is that those are finite. You could theoretically get as much Gigacannons and Kinetic blasters as you want, although it would be a massive chore. My only concern is those weapons will never see use in early and mid game. By the time you can waltz into a system and take on capital fleets, you'll have top of the line weaponry. So they either have to be very good all around or extremely niche that they make certain ships crazy strong.
Yes, it would be late.  Making Diktat hostile means no volatiles loop from Umbra to Sindria. (Forgot about black market.)  The biggest downside is I cannot wipe Diktat off the map without destroying the kinetic blaster farm, much like I never destroy Nexus battlestations because I want an infinite source of AI cores and other Remnant exclusives.

I would think a kinetic blaster would very good since puise laser is not efficient enough, and HSA Graviton is kind of weak and costs too much OP.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 11:11:56 AM by Megas »
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Sabaton

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #137 on: May 01, 2022, 11:16:31 AM »

What skills, if any, will Lions Guard officers have? I feel like giving them elite Helmsmanship and nothing else would be fitting and funny for a bunch of parade boys.

Also Tactical Drills should reduce CR loss from being harassed and increase it for harassed enemies for added space combat use.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 11:20:02 AM by Sabaton »
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Thaago

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #138 on: May 01, 2022, 11:20:27 AM »

Re:XIV skins: XIV are significantly more expensive, to the point where its honestly not worth buying them until in the 'post money' stage of the game. If I see a bounty fleet or enemy (or juicy target...) with one I am very much drawn to killing them and trying to recover, including spending story points, and I'm more likely to S mod and keep the XIV ships I have (as they are just better), but I don't think its too disruptive.
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Ruddygreat

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2022, 11:29:20 AM »

<my quote>
If kinetic blasters are optimal, then that means Askonia becomes like a red system to farm, except farming Diktats instead of Ordos.  That is why I called them possible "purple pirates" - a faction to kill for loot.

mhm, I don't want them to be that good (if I wasn't clear), forcing players into fighting the lg if they want to have a chance at getting a weapon that's objectively better than others in it's class (even most omega weapons aren't like that!) just feels kinda ehhhhhh to me.
esp. since the KB is probably gonna be 12op (assuming that the gigacannon is 28op, which seems reasonable for both weaps), which again puts it in a very wierd place imo.

EDIT - and a thought I had literally seconds after hitting post, it also makes the diktat as a whole shallower because most player interactions with them will be "how many kinetic blasters / gigacannons did they drop this time", vaguely ignoring the rest of the lore that's being set up in this update.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 11:35:06 AM by Ruddygreat »
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Megas

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2022, 11:50:40 AM »

Re:XIV skins: XIV are significantly more expensive, to the point where its honestly not worth buying them until in the 'post money' stage of the game. If I see a bounty fleet or enemy (or juicy target...) with one I am very much drawn to killing them and trying to recover, including spending story points, and I'm more likely to S mod and keep the XIV ships I have (as they are just better), but I don't think its too disruptive.
I usually get them by raiding relatively soft target Raesvelg for the blueprints then build the hulls myself.  Having a colony with Orbital Works, Military Base, and other stuff is close if not at post-money.  I use standard hulls if I get them early and usually keep them, especially if I add s-mods.

mhm, I don't want them to be that good (if I wasn't clear), forcing players into fighting the lg if they want to have a chance at getting a weapon that's objectively better than others in it's class (even most omega weapons aren't like that!) just feels kinda ehhhhhh to me.
esp. since the KB is probably gonna be 12op (assuming that the gigacannon is 28op, which seems reasonable for both weaps), which again puts it in a very wierd place imo.
Seeing that classic medium energy weapons have terrible anti-shield options, kinetic blaster possibly being one of the best weapons for anti-shield is a low bar to reach.  Medium has EMP, inefficient anti-armor (blasters), unremarkable generalist (pulse), and expensive and weak anti-shield (HSA Graviton).  Having a heavy blaster that simply does kinetic damage instead of energy would probably make it one of the best medium energy weapons in the game, as long as Ordos remain the strongest recurring opponent in the game by far.

If such ends up truly the case, and it can only be acquired by killing Lion's Guard ships, then I can easily see players going insta-hostile on Diktat to farm those blasters and other Diktat-exclusive loot as soon as the player is strong enough to do so.

EDIT - and a thought I had literally seconds after hitting post, it also makes the diktat as a whole shallower because most player interactions with them will be "how many kinetic blasters / gigacannons did they drop this time", vaguely ignoring the rest of the lore that's being set up in this update.
Yes.  "how many kinetic blasters / gigacannons did they drop this time" is exactly what I would think about Diktat if killing them is the only way to get their weapons (if they are good enough).

I already think "how many alpha cores drop" and "how many story points did I get" after I kill Remnants.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 12:03:20 PM by Megas »
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AcaMetis

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2022, 12:36:39 PM »

I do have to wonder if it would be impossible for Diktat (based) weapon dealers/smugger contacts to be able to offer up these weapons, if only at very high importance/relationship values and/or at an appropriate markup. Sure, policy is that they're not to be sold to mercenaries, but surely there's room for under the table deals somewhere within the entirety of Askonia.
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2022, 12:53:51 PM »

Even if you don't get the SD ships from quests, couldn't you feasibly get their weapons through quests/contacts?  At least to offer an alternative to fighting the LG fleets being the only way to get those unique weapons.

Side note, even if the LG ships are strictly worse, there are an awful lot of them.  It makes their fleets quite intimidating to new players given that they're basically extra patrols on top of the normal fleets in the system.  Lots of big ships with a different paintjob is quite scary and makes them very good at their intended job as a paper tiger or parade army.

Another note on the subject of new destroyers, since the Medusa isn't tanky enough to be a line ship (and it's system isn't a good match anyway) we really only have the enforcer and hammerhead in that role.  If we're after some medium missile slots, a midline brawler destroyer sporting two medium missiles would not be out of line for the tech group at all.  Make it tankier than the hammerhead, but with less sustained forward firepower.  Probably a bit slower so it's more focused on being a battleline ship.  This would also help with the problem that the PL and SD both use the hammerhead/sunder combo as the backbone of their battleline.  Adding this rare ship to either faction would dramatically improve the fleet variety.
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2022, 01:02:56 PM »

A midline brawler destroyer sporting two medium missiles would not be out of line for the tech group at all.  Make it tankier than the hammerhead, but with less sustained forward firepower.  Probably a bit slower so it's more focused on being a battleline ship.
You've just described Manticore.
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Igncom1

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2022, 01:20:58 PM »

I'm assuming that if the Diktat is making those weapons they should have the blueprints in their capital for you to steal.

I mean good luck doing that, buy possible.
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2022, 01:26:18 PM »

A midline brawler destroyer sporting two medium missiles would not be out of line for the tech group at all.  Make it tankier than the hammerhead, but with less sustained forward firepower.  Probably a bit slower so it's more focused on being a battleline ship.
You've just described Manticore.

Damn, you're right.  It hadn't clicked for me that the Manticore was as tanky as it is, since I always thought it was more like a low tech Sunder.  So you can add that to the list of line ships then.  I understand now why it's a lot harder to come up with good midline destroyers that don't step on its toes.
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randomone

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2022, 02:17:28 PM »

I agree with the others that the Diktat elite mod feels off. I'm fine with the concept of the elite unit being a paper tiger parade army, but not this way. I think a big part of it is that it just sounds like a good mod on a cool looking ship, and it doesn't communicate well enough where the deficiencies actually come from. I think you should try to connect the paradey-showy aspect of the fleet into the mod lore more. One example I came up with:

Heirloom Armor Plating - This ship has been fitted with a grandiose armor package from the pre-collapse era that glimmers constantly in the rays of Askonia's primary star. Unfortunately incompatiabilty with more modern STC patterns has led to deficiencies in actual combat effectiveness.

So we have the idea of an aging dictator outfitting his elite unit with armor that looks showy and cool, but also antiqued and actually crap. And then a player who goes out of his way to recover the cool looking ship will realize all the other combat ships look plain and functional for a reason
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Megas

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2022, 02:22:15 PM »

I'm assuming that if the Diktat is making those weapons they should have the blueprints in their capital for you to steal.

I mean good luck doing that, buy possible.
Sindria is one of the hardest places to steal blueprints from, but it is not too much harder than Kazeron.

My blueprint acquisition plan:
* Search for blueprint packs at the fringe, so that I do not get common junk like Harpoons or Hammerheads after raiding industry worlds.
* Raid New Maxios and Asher for blueprints.  Indies is the easiest to raid and has a huge smorgasbord of blueprints.  Church has some others.
* Raid Kapetyn Starworks for rare pirate ships.
* Raid Raesvelg for XIV and other ships, and some elite weapons.  Hardest of the "no battlestation" industry worlds, but still much easier than below.
* Raid Culann for high-tech ships and elite weapons.  Easiest of worlds guarded by a battlestation, but still much harder than Raesvelg.
* Raid Kazeron for Champion.  Harder than Culann to raid.
* Raid Sindria for as alternative for some Tri-Tachyon stuff if Culann has too low stability to raid.

Damn, you're right.  It hadn't clicked for me that the Manticore was as tanky as it is, since I always thought it was more like a low tech Sunder.  So you can add that to the list of line ships then.  I understand now why it's a lot harder to come up with good midline destroyers that don't step on its toes.
Wasn't the point of asking for missile destroyer was something the League can use for their new missiles, since they are exclusively midline (i.e., Manticore not an option for them)?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 02:24:55 PM by Megas »
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2022, 02:31:14 PM »

League has Drovers for destroyer missile boats. Not a line ship, but it fits the doctrine. Would be cool to have a cheap option for large missiles, but the pirate Venture somewhat fits the niche. Although at 14 dp you are probably better off with Ramparts.
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Redmoe

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #149 on: May 01, 2022, 02:32:12 PM »

Quote
They’d probably steal the design from a likely neighbor – in this case, the League. So, let’s say they stole the design of the Pegasus, and applied some modifications to make it more suited for operations in the Askonia system.
It's not like the League would just happen to leave capital ship blueprint plans unattended. Especially not so that their anti-Hegemony, pro-League, and fuel rich neighbor could use it to jumpstart fleet building.

I'm calling Combined Fleet Intelligence shenanigans.
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