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Author Topic: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2  (Read 38355 times)

Pratapon51

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2022, 11:08:20 AM »

Thirded .. the unique ship skins being worse than the stock version does not feel good.  :o
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Ishman

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2022, 11:17:36 AM »

Quote
In the current release, there’s an even split between warships, phase ships, and carriers – instead of that, it’ll be a split between warships and phase ships (leaning more towards phase ships), with carriers/fighters only coming into play when the fleet gets an Astral.

No gods, only Doom.
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2022, 11:24:30 AM »

Already can see Pegasus being big pain in the ass regardless of whether it is on your side or on the enemy's  :D

We shall see :)

Exciting stuff, thanks for sharing. Is the Nova sporting a new color scheme for the Remnants (blue instead of teal) or is it just the effect of the Comsec filter?

It's the filter.

I wonder how DEM will affect shieldless ships. High-power beams is one of their major weaknesses, after all.

About as you'd expect and probably still less badly than a regular High Intensity Laser :)

Pegasus: Despite 2 of the Large missiles facing backwards, I still feel like a 4 Hurricane loadout would be a bit imbalanced. I look forward to trying it out!

Ah - I seem to remember (not in connection with the Pegasus) reducing the warhead count on the Hurricane a bit back. It's at <checks> 7 now, but with considerably improvement maneuverability to compensate, so that ECCM no longer feels as "required" to make the Hurricane work. So the net effect of the change is to raise the floor and reduce the ceiling of its performance - which also has to fortunate effect of making it less of an issue on the Pegasus, I think.

Sindrian Stuff: I get the lore reason behind it, but I kind of don't like the Lions Guard ships being worse than the generic counterparts. The XIV ships are mostly better across the board given their hullmod and improved flux stats, making them a nice treat to pick up. The LG ships on the other hand, are stuck with a permanent D-mod and worse OP in exchange for the relatively useless Solar Shielding - I feel like there would be little reason for the player to go out of their way to grab a LG Eagle. Perhaps I'm too spoiled by the LG ships in mods, that usually are a step above the basic versions.

This is one of those things where it makes good in-fiction sense that they'd look flashy and be worse - where for the XIV ships, it makes sense that they'd actually be better. As for why the player might grab them... self-challenge run, perhaps? :) They're not *terrble*, anyway; it's barely a d-mod (and doesn't reduce their recovery cost, btw).

Ludd Stuff: I first bought this game after watching Sseth's video, and always thought the pathers would be ramming me with exceptionally explosive tanker ships like the space jihadis that they were. The wonderful Luddic Enchancement mod has this, but I wondered if there would ever be official integration of the Kamikaze Tanker ships.

Hmm - that seems like it would be difficult to make fun. Like, you can shoot down missiles, but you can't really shoot down ships, and you might end up with situations where there just isn't too much you can do. And it'd mess with the ship AI - it would have to become aware of a qualitatively different threat. I mean, I could see it, depending, but it's also not something I'm super keen on, if that makes sense.

Wonderful work as always, I eagerly await the next update!

Thank you!

There's one thing I do not understand. Why is Sindria using midline ships at all? Their fleet is a rogue Hegemony battlegroup. Surely they should be using Hegemony ships?  Or a mix of Hegemony and stuff they've bought from...whoever would be willing to sell to them.  Are they the Hegemony's testbed fleet that tried using midline ships for some reason? 

It's a question of blueprints, right? The ships in the original battlegroup are long gone by now, and - as evidenced by their use of midline ships - these midline blueprints are what they were able to get their hands on.


Also, while the Lion of Sindria might be a dictator, and surely wouldn't be perfect, he is an intelligent admiral with significant actual combat experience.  They gave him a battlegroup.  The idea that he's a completely negative influence on the fleet is a little odd. He might skew them weirdly, but he shouldn't make them flat-out ineffective and useless (especially since Sindria's not big enough to keep existing if their fleet is useless and their Lion is incompetent and dragging them down).  Plus I concur with AppleMarineXX that it doesn't exactly make it fun to get a LG ship. 

Also also, IMO Sindria's way more interesting if it's a dictatorship with flaws but is actually an improvement over what was there before.  That's far more interesting than the Lion of Sindria just being a bog-standard dictator who thinks he's a genius but isn't.

I think if you see the SD and Andrada this way, you probably haven't been reading too much of the lore/backstory/descriptions/etc, and aren't considering how someone with a tendency towards megalomania is going to change over, what, 50+ years of having absolute power. Which, fair enough, but it's been this way all along - now it's just reflected in their fleets.

(Edit: as an added point, I don't think the idea that a high-ranking military officer has to be intelligent or even competent stands up to much scrutiny. Also, the survival of a small polity would also be down to politics and leverage (in this case, fuel production); it would be exceedingly unlikely to be assured by military force.)

Ir auto lance seems interesting as well, I'm curious if it will completely take over the niche of low flux cost support in the medium energy slot from the graviton beam.

Hmm - it's really, really, really bad at anti-shield, so I'd suspect not, but I guess we'll see!

I'm curious if the beam missiles can fire over allies or not. That would really change their effectiveness IMO.

They all can, yeah.

I'm also really glad to hear squall is getting adjusted. Squall spam was already an issue if you stacked enough ships like apogee in a fleet.

*thumbs up*

I'll second the opinion that making lions guard ships kinda just downgrades from normal ships feels really bad. At least the executor gets some different mounts that could make it interesting, but if the other LG ships are just normal ships with a d-mod, that's really disappointing IMO.

I get where you're coming from with that! I've been half-thinking of increasing the OP by like half the Solar Shielding cost so they get half of it for "free", perhaps. But on the other hand, that'd be going against the narrative point that this is making - cool-looking ships that aren't actually as good, and all that entails as far as "why" etc. Basically, the primary role of the LG skins is narrative, not mechanical, if that makes sense. (Their weapons, on the other hand, were easier to make do both of those.)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 11:53:01 AM by Alex »
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Timid

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2022, 11:25:25 AM »

Quote
The new chief designer, with input from the Supreme Executor himself, has modified the blueprints to include blast-proof insulated paneling.

What does this mean in mechanical terms? Is it fake news fluff to justify a higher crew casualty, reduced flux dissipation, and increased time to repair disabled weapons and engines? Would be interested to see if this D-Mod had an upside. Considering the built-in Solar Shielding for LG ships actually deducts the base OP at a 1:1 ratio (was thinking 2:3 ratio).

Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2022, 11:27:41 AM »

What does this mean in mechanical terms? Is it fake news fluff to justify a higher crew casualty, reduced flux dissipation, and increased time to repair disabled weapons and engines? Would be interested to see if this D-Mod had an upside. Considering the built-in Solar Shielding actually deducts the base OP at a 1:1 ratio (was thinking 2:3 ratio).

That the blast-proof paneling has the opposite of its intended effect and that the conduits were left exposed for some very good if perhaps not immediately obvious reasons. If that's what you're asking? Not quite sure.
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Nautilus81

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2022, 11:30:43 AM »

Based on the wording of the post, is the Diktat losing access to the Conquest completely, or will the 'regulars' still have it as their own capital ship?
If not, will we be seeing another Diktat capital in the future to fill its niche?
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Timid

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2022, 11:32:52 AM »

That the blast-proof paneling has the opposite of its intended effect and that the conduits were left exposed for some very good if perhaps not immediately obvious reasons. If that's what you're asking? Not quite sure.
Ok that's good to know, thought the blast-proof paneling had some hidden positive effect

Cyan Leader

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2022, 11:44:00 AM »

I get where you're coming from with that! I've been half-thinking of increasing the OP by like half the Solar Shielding cost so they get half of it for "free", perhaps. But on the other hand, that'd be going against the narrative point that this is making - cool-looking ships that aren't actually as good, and all that entails as far as "why" etc. Basically, the primary role of the LG skins is narrative, not mechanical, if that makes sense. (Their weapons, on the other hand, were easier to make do both of those.)

That's fair, but I feel the average player will fight them, recover a Sindrian ship due to them looking cool, open the refit screen, glance over at the hullmod and be excited to use this and then they hover it and notice it's just a d-mod and they might as well just use regular midlines. Don't get me wrong, it's cool and all that lore is being added, but the way its presented I feel people won't really react in the "huh, so that's how the Sindrian operate" way, it will be more like "this ship is a waste". It's about expectations really. When you get a pirate ship with 3 d-mods you expect to get a piece of trash, when you get a ship from The Lion's Guard you're kinda expecting something decent, if not better than the average.
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Thaago

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2022, 11:50:45 AM »

This looks amazing! I'm hyped to see the new ships in action!

Does the Executor have the flux to fire its guns? It looks like it had less than 500 base dissipation (or maybe 500 and then a penalty from the D mod). I get that its a 'bad job' conversion, but you'd think that even basic firing range tests would show that if you convert 2 missile mounts to energy then you need to do something for its flux. Maybe the politically loyal/incompetent Lions guard wouldn't notice, but the 'regular' Dictat military are also stuck with the ship...

Does the D mod on Dictat ships go away on rebuild like ill advised modifications does? That would be an interesting (if very expensive) way to get the skinned ships.
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IGdood

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2022, 11:59:15 AM »

Andrada starting to remind me more of a Tropico player character

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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2022, 12:05:00 PM »

I understand the SD reasoning, and I don't think it's illogical. I just... really don't like it.

So disappointing to get new content that is intentionally useless (strictly worse). I would much prefer a side grade of some sort like pirate falcon vs regular falcon (maybe not that strong though).
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2022, 12:07:00 PM »

Based on the wording of the post, is the Diktat losing access to the Conquest completely, or will the 'regulars' still have it as their own capital ship?
If not, will we be seeing another Diktat capital in the future to fill its niche?

They don't have the Conquest anymore, no. And, no, given their place in the Sector, I don't think they rate a second capital ship, so that seems unlikely.


That's fair, but I feel the average player will fight them, recover a Sindrian ship due to them looking cool, open the refit screen, glance over at the hullmod and be excited to use this and then they hover it and notice it's just a d-mod and they might as well just use regular midlines. Don't get me wrong, it's cool and all that lore is being added, but the way its presented I feel people won't really react in the "huh, so that's how the Sindrian operate" way, it will be more like "this ship is a waste". It's about expectations really. When you get a pirate ship with 3 d-mods you expect to get a piece of trash, when you get a ship from The Lion's Guard you're kinda expecting something decent, if not better than the average.

Yeah, I get that 100%. I think it *will* misfire sometimes in just the way you're describing, for those exact reasons. I think other times it will also "click" and help tell the story of the Sindrian Diktat, and I think that could be a very cool moment for someone.


Does the Executor have the flux to fire its guns? It looks like it had less than 500 base dissipation (or maybe 500 and then a penalty from the D mod). I get that its a 'bad job' conversion, but you'd think that even basic firing range tests would show that if you convert 2 missile mounts to energy then you need to do something for its flux.

Not continuously, but a pair of HILs can fire well enough to do anti-armor duty and it can sustain the fire of the rest of the guns - which can be all kinetics - for a long time. Just for reference, the 2xHIL version can solo the simulation Onslaught (which to be fair is absolutely not optimized for this duel) while taking zero hull damage. It's a reasonably capable ship.

It's got 450 dissipation after the d-mod, but much of a captial ship's dissipation comes from vents, the flux distributor, and Ordnance Expertise, so the low base dissipation isn't *quite* as much of a handicap.

Maybe the politically loyal/incompetent Lions guard wouldn't notice, but the 'regular' Dictat military are also stuck with the ship...

(Yeah, but who's going to actually *say* something when the Supreme Executor himself is behind the changes? Anyone that would is at best in the mines of Cruor or on some remote agri-platform on Volturn...)

Does the D mod on Dictat ships go away on rebuild like ill advised modifications does? That would be an interesting (if very expensive) way to get the skinned ships.

It can be removed, yeah!

Andrada starting to remind me more of a Tropico player character

(Never played, but I hear it's good!)
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2022, 12:11:42 PM »

I understand the SD reasoning, and I don't think it's illogical. I just... really don't like it.

So disappointing to get new content that is intentionally useless (strictly worse). I would much prefer a side grade of some sort like pirate falcon vs regular falcon (maybe not that strong though).

Fair! (Well, not "useless", and not always strictly worse - if you remove the d-mod and your build would have had Solar Shielding anyway, then they're up to par. But that aside...)

I'll just say that maybe looking at those specific ships (aside from the Executor) as "new content" is a mistake, if a very understandable one. Or, rather - it's new narrative content, not so much new mechanical content, if you know what I mean.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 12:14:15 PM by Alex »
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Nimiety

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2022, 12:23:53 PM »

All of the faction stuff was cool except for the Sindrians. Could have given them cool stuff but instead they got... reskins and *** weapons. I get it, fascism bad, but those guys did come up with the solar shielding hullmod. Surely they'd at least be the best at actually incorporating it into their designs?

Think I'll stick with the lions guard mod instead.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 12:26:51 PM by Nimiety »
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IonDragonX

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2022, 12:25:21 PM »

Sindrian Stuff: I get the lore reason behind it, but I kind of don't like the Lions Guard ships being worse than the generic counterparts. The XIV ships are mostly better across the board given their hullmod and improved flux stats, making them a nice treat to pick up. The LG ships on the other hand, are stuck with a permanent D-mod and worse OP in exchange for the relatively useless Solar Shielding - I feel like there would be little reason for the player to go out of their way to grab a LG Eagle. Perhaps I'm too spoiled by the LG ships in mods, that usually are a step above the basic versions.

This is one of those things where it makes good in-fiction sense that they'd look flashy and be worse - where for the XIV ships, it makes sense that they'd actually be better. As for why the player might grab them... self-challenge run, perhaps? :) They're not *terrble*, anyway; it's barely a d-mod (and doesn't reduce their recovery cost, btw).

I'll second the opinion that making lions guard ships kinda just downgrades from normal ships feels really bad. At least the executor gets some different mounts that could make it interesting, but if the other LG ships are just normal ships with a d-mod, that's really disappointing IMO.

I get where you're coming from with that! I've been half-thinking of increasing the OP by like half the Solar Shielding cost so they get half of it for "free", perhaps. But on the other hand, that'd be going against the narrative point that this is making - cool-looking ships that aren't actually as good, and all that entails as far as "why" etc. Basically, the primary role of the LG skins is narrative, not mechanical, if that makes sense. (Their weapons, on the other hand, were easier to make do both of those.)

I'm glad that the LG Special Modifications is more annoying than truly debilitating. That said, will the officer levels and S-mods be skewed toward the LG as opposed to Regulars? I think it would be pretty cool for the best/most decorated of the Regulars to all be promoted into the LG.  Their superior captain skills and the S-mods that they bring with them would more than over-compensate for the Special Modifications. It would be also running with the lore-wise hubris of Sindria, removing the greatest talent pool from the military that has the most responsibility.
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