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[Dazs]

For the Missiles/Rockets, I believe the actual image in battle/the targetable rocket is too small. The PDM is basically a glowing dot, and the inferno rockets are much smaller than the anti-shield option (I'm at work so I don't have the name on hand.)
Also, the Inferno-rockets still do far too little damage and move too slow if they're intentional. You've made them worse than Anhialator's or even Light Mortars and far more expensive.
As for targetting, the targeting works well. But pilots can pilot them, and use them as a weapon targeting ships, which causes them to shine.

Ahh ok I get it now, thank you for the clarification. I can easily re-make their sprites to be more size appropriate. I already have a note to adjust the Inferno so that'll def be in the next patch.

For the tanker, I haven't taken it into battle (Sounds far too risky when it comes to my fuel supply), it's more that I could quite feasibly give it a pair of Railguns and have a ok support ship due to the sheer OP available.

I plan to give it a once over as well and most likely lower the OP and replace the mounted weapons on the variant with less op cost ones.

Finally for Autocanon ammo, I was considering just Expanded Magazine which from memory would bring them to 200. They then fire every 5 seconds, and reload every 10. At that rate, the ammo limit is... A joke.

Gotcha. I will be running it through a couple battles with different amounts and adjust the ammo count based on that testing. Thank you for the clarification, it helps.

Anyone else got an idea for the next patch? I'll be working on it when I can through the week.

[Dazs]

V0.45 released today - Details are in the changelog posted on the forum OP and in the RAR

@rawkhawklives and 5ColouredWalker I incorporated your thoughts and ideas into this patch Big TY for all the work.
@ThatFolfy Sort of owe you an apology. I promised I would fix the sound file for the Autocannon last patch but it is fixed in the this patch.

[rawkhawklives]

I was just giving it a new run on the last patch and saw that you evened up the PD and flux on the super ship start, it really shines as a super ship stock now. The shield was visually off-balance, a little to the right, but I otherwise really enjoy this ship.

Glad to see another patch as I scrolled Discord! I'll download it and give it a go and come back with my thoughts in the next few days.

[Dazs]

I was just giving it a new run on the last patch and saw that you evened up the PD and flux on the super ship start, it really shines as a super ship stock now. The shield was visually off-balance, a little to the right, but I otherwise really enjoy this ship.

Glad to see another patch as I scrolled Discord! I'll download it and give it a go and come back with my thoughts in the next few days.

Not sure what you mean about the shield but I'll look into it. Thanks for the ups.
Looking forward to your thoughts, keep em coming!

[Kumquat]

I love this mod. The combat freighter, what is it, the shaw or slaw or something like that, seems a bit too good. I've been wrecking with a fleet of those.

[Dazs]

I love this mod. The combat freighter, what is it, the shaw or slaw or something like that, seems a bit too good. I've been wrecking with a fleet of those.

Always great to head a kind word, I am glad you are enjoying the mod.

Well I have a combat freighter in three different classes, there is the Brigantine (destroyer), the Schooner (cruiser), the Scow (frigate). At a guess, I would think it is the Schooner you are referring to since it is the heaviest. If you have a moment to let me know which one, I'll look into it. Also, when you say a fleet of them, are you running a fleet of 30 combat freighters? You mad lad!

[Kumquat]

Sorry that was from my phone and didn't have the game handy. It is the Scow. It's so good, and so easy to fit. I would think just 10 less ordnance points maybe? And/or one less fitting point? It's such a good combat craft, and it can haul, and it's only like 12k? A handful of those can handle so much.

[Robin Shaw]

hi there, was just wondering if theres any reason in particular that the mod requires Nexerelin? i really like how the ships look so it would be a real shame to have to remove it 

in any case its a great mod, keep up the good work my friend

[Dazs]

The reason I have that dependency is that I use some code that requires Nex, Lazylib and Magiclib  to be useable. Were you to run it without those three mods, your game start would crash. I am unsure If I could make a non-NEX version but I could look into that for some future alternate update.

Thank you for the kind words, it really makes the work worthwhile to know I am not the only one that likes my mods.

[5ColouredWalker]

Sorry that was from my phone and didn't have the game handy. It is the Scow. It's so good, and so easy to fit. I would think just 10 less ordnance points maybe? And/or one less fitting point? It's such a good combat craft, and it can haul, and it's only like 12k? A handful of those can handle so much.

Pretty sure the reason it's so good is mostly volley and point defence missiles.
I generally give them 2 PD, and then 2 of those plus a medium gun of the opposite damage type plus aux thrusters since their guns aren't turrets. Slap on the Expanded missile s for a third less cargo and they're not going to run out of ammo but aren't great haulers. Salvage rigs on all of them meN they easily account for +50% salvage in a small fleet.

[Dazs]

Sorry that was from my phone and didn't have the game handy. It is the Scow. It's so good, and so easy to fit. I would think just 10 less ordnance points maybe? And/or one less fitting point? It's such a good combat craft, and it can haul, and it's only like 12k? A handful of those can handle so much.

Pretty sure the reason it's so good is mostly volley and point defence missiles.
I generally give them 2 PD, and then 2 of those plus a medium gun of the opposite damage type plus aux thrusters since their guns aren't turrets. Slap on the Expanded missile s for a third less cargo and they're not going to run out of ammo but aren't great haulers. Salvage rigs on all of them meN they easily account for +50% salvage in a small fleet.

I just finished up a hotfix for JYD so I have some time to tinker with CFT. I've already got a couple adjustments made from messages I received on discord and would like to incorporate both your views into a potential update to the Scow for the next patch.

First off, thank you both for taking the time to provide your input and well thought out comments. I would like some clarity if you have some time to let me know if I have your concerns correctly. Here is a TLDR breakdown of how I designed the balance and loadout of the Scow and how I generally layout the ships in both of my playable faction mods:

The comparable vanilla midline frigate sized combat freighter, the Wayfarer, has a 2250 HP, 250 armor, 1600 flux, 120 flux dissipation, 170 shield arc, 150 cargo, 55 OP, 120 max speed, 50 max crew, 40 fuel, and 6 small turrets.

The Scow is a midline frigate sized combat freighter with 1500 HP, 200 armor, 1850 flux, 250 flux dissipation, 170 shield arc, 100 cargo, 65 OP, 180 max speed, 40 max crew, 30 fuel, 2 small turrets, 1 small hardpoint and 2 medium hardpoints. I put two built in hull mods, shielded cargo bay (5 OP) and a salvage gantry (5 OP) on the Scow.

Comparable stats: The Scow has 750 less HP, 50 less armor, 50 less cargo, 10 less max crew, 10 less fuel capacity 3 less small mounts. To offset that it gains 20 more OP (adding in the OP of the mods), 60 more speed 250 more max flux, 130 more flux dissipation, and 2 more medium mounts. I felt that by replacing 3 small mounts with 2 medium mounts it put it farther into combat w/out going too OP. (idk I'd appreciate any comments on that)

I designed the Scow to be more combat than freighter vs the Wayfarer which is more freighter than combat. I felt that by making the Scow less durable in HP and armor but giving it more max flux, flux dissipation and speed with the two hull mods puts it line with CFT tech lore of "less durable but with better than average speed and shields and smuggler/scavenger oriented". The additional flux strengthens it's shield capacity and offsets the higher demands of it's weapon mount loadout. To balance that I gave the Scow less capacity to carry cargo, crew and fuel.

So bottom line, I tried to balance it while letting it stand out from it's vanilla counterpart by designing the Scow to be less freighter but more combat/utility. By giving it those built in hull mods (shielded holds for smuggler and salvage gantry for salvager) it puts it inline with CFT lore and the additional weapons and higher OP gives it more combat options.

If I understand both of your concerns correctly, Kumquat believes that lowering the OP from 65 to 55 and removing one of the mounts would balance it. Whereas 5ColouredWalker makes another point that with it's higher OP they can add two combat oriented hull mods that make it even less freighter and more combat ship category.

My personal belief is that I want to give players choice and options with the ships I design and I am always happy to see players share their loadouts that show ways of using the ships I would not of thought of. So if I were to lower the OP, it would disallow 5ColouredWalker the option to go their route. Removing a turret is sort of vague since the Scow had varied types of turrets, so some clarity on which mount to remove would be appreciated. Ok so now that you have my thought process on balance and based on the stats I would truly appreciate some constructive comments on how to balance the Scow.

I look forward to both your replies as well as any other player that would like to add to the conversation. 

[Robin Shaw]

The reason I have that dependency is that I use some code that requires Nex, Lazylib and Magiclib  to be useable. Were you to run it without those three mods, your game start would crash. I am unsure If I could make a non-NEX version but I could look into that for some future alternate update.

Thank you for the kind words, it really makes the work worthwhile to know I am not the only one that likes my mods.

thanks for the speedy reply, this community seems really welcoming and once i get a slightly stonger computer ill make sure this mod becomes a permanent addition to my games

[Dazs]

thanks for the speedy reply, this community seems really welcoming and once i get a slightly stonger computer ill make sure this mod becomes a permanent addition to my games

Welcome, it's a great community, just um be selective on discord I will adding a Nex and lib dependency notice to the mod files in the next patch to add to the notice I have on the OP. The game does not need a particularly strong computer but it is not exactly optimized when using mods. Have you increased your vpram memory to accomodate mod use yet? It really helps and you can read more here: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8726.0 Dark Revenant did a nice DIY posting on how and why to do it.

[PeopleThief]

Sorry that was from my phone and didn't have the game handy. It is the Scow. It's so good, and so easy to fit. I would think just 10 less ordnance points maybe? And/or one less fitting point? It's such a good combat craft, and it can haul, and it's only like 12k? A handful of those can handle so much.

Pretty sure the reason it's so good is mostly volley and point defence missiles.
I generally give them 2 PD, and then 2 of those plus a medium gun of the opposite damage type plus aux thrusters since their guns aren't turrets. Slap on the Expanded missile s for a third less cargo and they're not going to run out of ammo but aren't great haulers. Salvage rigs on all of them meN they easily account for +50% salvage in a small fleet.

I just finished up a hotfix for JYD so I have some time to tinker with CFT. I've already got a couple adjustments made from messages I received on discord and would like to incorporate both your views into a potential update to the Scow for the next patch.

First off, thank you both for taking the time to provide your input and well thought out comments. I would like some clarity if you have some time to let me know if I have your concerns correctly. Here is a TLDR breakdown of how I designed the balance and loadout of the Scow and how I generally layout the ships in both of my playable faction mods:

The comparable vanilla midline frigate sized combat freighter, the Wayfarer, has a 2250 HP, 250 armor, 1600 flux, 120 flux dissipation, 170 shield arc, 150 cargo, 55 OP, 120 max speed, 50 max crew, 40 fuel, and 6 small turrets.

The Scow is a midline frigate sized combat freighter with 1500 HP, 200 armor, 1850 flux, 250 flux dissipation, 170 shield arc, 100 cargo, 65 OP, 180 max speed, 40 max crew, 30 fuel, 2 small turrets, 1 small hardpoint and 2 medium hardpoints. I put two built in hull mods, shielded cargo bay (5 OP) and a salvage gantry (5 OP) on the Scow.

Comparable stats: The Scow has 750 less HP, 50 less armor, 50 less cargo, 10 less max crew, 10 less fuel capacity 3 less small mounts. To offset that it gains 20 more OP (adding in the OP of the mods), 60 more speed 250 more max flux, 130 more flux dissipation, and 2 more medium mounts. I felt that by replacing 3 small mounts with 2 medium mounts it put it farther into combat w/out going too OP. (idk I'd appreciate any comments on that)

I designed the Scow to be more combat than freighter vs the Wayfarer which is more freighter than combat. I felt that by making the Scow less durable in HP and armor but giving it more max flux, flux dissipation and speed with the two hull mods puts it line with CFT tech lore of "less durable but with better than average speed and shields and smuggler/scavenger oriented". The additional flux strengthens it's shield capacity and offsets the higher demands of it's weapon mount loadout. To balance that I gave the Scow less capacity to carry cargo, crew and fuel.

So bottom line, I tried to balance it while letting it stand out from it's vanilla counterpart by designing the Scow to be less freighter but more combat/utility. By giving it those built in hull mods (shielded holds for smuggler and salvage gantry for salvager) it puts it inline with CFT lore and the additional weapons and higher OP gives it more combat options.

If I understand both of your concerns correctly, Kumquat believes that lowering the OP from 65 to 55 and removing one of the mounts would balance it. Whereas 5ColouredWalker makes another point that with it's higher OP they can add two combat oriented hull mods that make it even less freighter and more combat ship category.

My personal belief is that I want to give players choice and options with the ships I design and I am always happy to see players share their loadouts that show ways of using the ships I would not of thought of. So if I were to lower the OP, it would disallow 5ColouredWalker the option to go their route. Removing a turret is sort of vague since the Scow had varied types of turrets, so some clarity on which mount to remove would be appreciated. Ok so now that you have my thought process on balance and based on the stats I would truly appreciate some constructive comments on how to balance the Scow.

I look forward to both your replies as well as any other player that would like to add to the conversation. 

In my opinion, the problems with the scow lie in the fact not that it directly outcompetes the wayfarer as a freighter (which is debatable), but that it is very competitive with the brawler, a vanilla midline frigate fully dedicated to combat. Yes, the brawler is far more durable, with more hull, better shield, and dramatically more armor and flux capacity. However, this matters less than you might think, since the brawler still doesn't have enough armor and hull to survive a small barrage of harpoons, or enough capacity to shield tank a small sabot barrage. And that is just against other frigates and weaker destroyers, with proper heavy guns on a cruiser or a capital, the extra durability is largely irrelevant. The only other real advantage the brawler has over the scow is it's high PPT, but on frigates that is only really important late in the game, and it doesn't matter in the early-mid game, when frigate balancing is most relevant. Now lets look at the advantages the Scow has. It has more guns, with an extra small weapon slot over the brawler, and it has a huge 15 extra OP. But the really huge advantage the scow has is that while the brawler is very slow for a frigate, at only 100 speed, the scow is incredibly fast for a frigate, at an insane 180 speed, only matched by the tempest in vanilla, which is an elite frigate that costs 40-50k. While if it was just all the things I just went over, it would probably be largely fine. A very strong option, but it would be ok for the most part. The really big problem is that the scow strongly competes with the brawler, while providing lots of logistic support. It has 100 cargo capacity, which adds up when you have several scows, but the big thing is that it has a salvage gantry and shielded cargo holds. While you have equated them to being equivalent to 5 OP each, since they are not available as modular hull mods, they are worth far more than that. Shielded cargo holds is very useful and only available on 4 vanilla ships (hound, cerberus, P mule, and the rare P buffalo), but the real catch here is salvage gantry. The extra salvage it provides is huge. While you might argue that you could just use shepherds which have the same amount of cargo and a salvage gantry, and also come with free surveying equipment, shepherds do not have shielded cargo holds, and are terrible in combat, making them risky to spam. With scows, on the other hand, you get the salvage bonuses of a shepherd, and shielded cargo holds, while being a top-of-the-line combat frigate. And since surveying equipment is modular and scows have so much OP, they can easily use it while still being combat viable. I think scows probably need to lose salvage gantry, and 5-15 OP, and be like 30 speed slower (and maybe downgrade one of the medium mounts to a small).

[Dazs]

Hello there! Nice points you make about the Scow, thank you for taking the time to share them.

In my opinion, the problems with the scow lie in the fact not that it directly outcompetes the wayfarer as a freighter (which is debatable), but that it is very competitive with the brawler, a vanilla midline frigate fully dedicated to combat. Yes, the brawler is far more durable, with more hull, better shield, and dramatically more armor and flux capacity. However, this matters less than you might think, since the brawler still doesn't have enough armor and hull to survive a small barrage of harpoons, or enough capacity to shield tank a small sabot barrage. And that is just against other frigates and weaker destroyers, with proper heavy guns on a cruiser or a capital, the extra durability is largely irrelevant. The only other real advantage the brawler has over the scow is it's high PPT, but on frigates that is only really important late in the game, and it doesn't matter in the early-mid game, when frigate balancing is most relevant.

Well when I made the Scow I did not compare it to combat frigates like the Brawler. It's intended purpose is to be a Smugglers logistical combat freighter more focused on combat than freighter but not so much that it can replace a combat ship. Though you de-value the advantages that the Brawler has in mid game, I think they are key differences that have great value for a wolfpack fleet ship.

Now lets look at the advantages the Scow has. It has more guns, with an extra small weapon slot over the brawler, and it has a huge 15 extra OP. But the really huge advantage the scow has is that while the brawler is very slow for a frigate, at only 100 speed, the scow is incredibly fast for a frigate, at an insane 180 speed, only matched by the tempest in vanilla, which is an elite frigate that costs 40-50k. While if it was just all the things I just went over, it would probably be largely fine.

I have already taken the comments I received from Kumquat and rawkhawklives and modified it by removing the small front missile mount and reducing the OP by 5. I will give your speed concerns more thought while playing around with the data files for the next update.

The really big problem is that the scow strongly competes with the brawler, while providing lots of logistic support. It has 100 cargo capacity, which adds up when you have several scows, but the big thing is that it has a salvage gantry and shielded cargo holds. While you have equated them to being equivalent to 5 OP each, since they are not available as modular hull mods, they are worth far more than that. Shielded cargo holds is very useful and only available on 4 vanilla ships (hound, cerberus, P mule, and the rare P buffalo), but the real catch here is salvage gantry. The extra salvage it provides is huge. While you might argue that you could just use shepherds which have the same amount of cargo and a salvage gantry, and also come with free surveying equipment, shepherds do not have shielded cargo holds, and are terrible in combat, making them risky to spam.

Yes, both the Sheppard and the Scow are combat freighter logistics frigates but the Sheppard also has mining drones that provide extra PD support and mining stats for Nex which the Scow lacks. The Sheppard is intended to be a backline support frigate if deployed where as the Scow is a nimble front line glass cannon that can do some damage but one wrong move and it is destroyed. The 5 OP I used to calculate the hull mods actually comes from vanilla SS files, that is what Alex rates their worth as. The surveying equipment on the Sheppard is equal in OP to the shielded holds on the Scow so that's a bit of a wash.

With scows, on the other hand, you get the salvage bonuses of a shepherd, and shielded cargo holds, while being a top-of-the-line combat frigate. And since surveying equipment is modular and scows have so much OP, they can easily use it while still being combat viable. I think scows probably need to lose salvage gantry, and 5-15 OP, and be like 30 speed slower (and maybe downgrade one of the medium mounts to a small).

I am hesitant to remove the gantry and shielded holds because those are on-point aspects for the CFT technical lore. Overall I want CFT ships to not just be analogs of vanilla counterparts but offer something that vanilla does not offer. I do agree that in it's current state it is Op for it's role as a smugglers logistics freighter. I have the changes I made to the Scow stated above as well as sprite updates to reflect them ready for the next patch. I will take into account your comments before a final release for the Scow but I should have a patch that also includes some other player suggested changes to the mod out over the weekend.

Thank you again for your thoughts, I truly appreciate the input.