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Author Topic: [0.97a] Carter's Freetraders - V 2.0 - 03/17/24  (Read 174778 times)

PeopleThief

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.45 - 05/26/22
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2022, 02:35:15 PM »

Hello there! Nice points you make about the Scow, thank you for taking the time to share them.
In my opinion, the problems with the scow lie in the fact not that it directly outcompetes the wayfarer as a freighter (which is debatable), but that it is very competitive with the brawler, a vanilla midline frigate fully dedicated to combat. Yes, the brawler is far more durable, with more hull, better shield, and dramatically more armor and flux capacity. However, this matters less than you might think, since the brawler still doesn't have enough armor and hull to survive a small barrage of harpoons, or enough capacity to shield tank a small sabot barrage. And that is just against other frigates and weaker destroyers, with proper heavy guns on a cruiser or a capital, the extra durability is largely irrelevant. The only other real advantage the brawler has over the scow is it's high PPT, but on frigates that is only really important late in the game, and it doesn't matter in the early-mid game, when frigate balancing is most relevant.
Well when I made the Scow I did not compare it to combat frigates like the Brawler. It's intended purpose is to be a Smugglers logistical combat freighter more focused on combat than freighter but not so much that it can replace a combat ship. Though you de-value the advantages that the Brawler has in mid game, I think they are key differences that have great value for a wolfpack fleet ship.
Now lets look at the advantages the Scow has. It has more guns, with an extra small weapon slot over the brawler, and it has a huge 15 extra OP. But the really huge advantage the scow has is that while the brawler is very slow for a frigate, at only 100 speed, the scow is incredibly fast for a frigate, at an insane 180 speed, only matched by the tempest in vanilla, which is an elite frigate that costs 40-50k. While if it was just all the things I just went over, it would probably be largely fine.
I have already taken the comments I received from Kumquat and rawkhawklives and modified it by removing the small front missile mount and reducing the OP by 5. I will give your speed concerns more thought while playing around with the data files for the next update.
The really big problem is that the scow strongly competes with the brawler, while providing lots of logistic support. It has 100 cargo capacity, which adds up when you have several scows, but the big thing is that it has a salvage gantry and shielded cargo holds. While you have equated them to being equivalent to 5 OP each, since they are not available as modular hull mods, they are worth far more than that. Shielded cargo holds is very useful and only available on 4 vanilla ships (hound, cerberus, P mule, and the rare P buffalo), but the real catch here is salvage gantry. The extra salvage it provides is huge. While you might argue that you could just use shepherds which have the same amount of cargo and a salvage gantry, and also come with free surveying equipment, shepherds do not have shielded cargo holds, and are terrible in combat, making them risky to spam.
Yes, both the Sheppard and the Scow are combat freighter logistics frigates but the Sheppard also has mining drones that provide extra PD support and mining stats for Nex which the Scow lacks. The Sheppard is intended to be a backline support frigate if deployed where as the Scow is a nimble front line glass cannon that can do some damage but one wrong move and it is destroyed. The 5 OP I used to calculate the hull mods actually comes from vanilla SS files, that is what Alex rates their worth as. The surveying equipment on the Sheppard is equal in OP to the shielded holds on the Scow so that's a bit of a wash.
With scows, on the other hand, you get the salvage bonuses of a shepherd, and shielded cargo holds, while being a top-of-the-line combat frigate. And since surveying equipment is modular and scows have so much OP, they can easily use it while still being combat viable. I think scows probably need to lose salvage gantry, and 5-15 OP, and be like 30 speed slower (and maybe downgrade one of the medium mounts to a small).
I am hesitant to remove the gantry and shielded holds because those are on-point aspects for the CFT technical lore. Overall I want CFT ships to not just be analogs of vanilla counterparts but offer something that vanilla does not offer. I do agree that in it's current state it is Op for it's role as a smugglers logistics freighter. I have the changes I made to the Scow stated above as well as sprite updates to reflect them ready for the next patch. I will take into account your comments before a final release for the Scow but I should have a patch that also includes some other player suggested changes to the mod out over the weekend.

Thank you again for your thoughts, I truly appreciate the input.

I know you were not comparing it to the brawler; my point was that it competed with the brawler. I disagree with the idea that the brawler's advantages make it a good wolfpack tactics, in my experience wolfpack tac ships generally need to be substantially faster than the brawler, and while I could see a point in having something tanky, it needs to be very tanky to be worth it and still needs to be fast, and the only option I have found for that is a personally piloted SO unstable injector hardened subsystems monitor. The high speed and heavy armament of the scow makes it pretty good for wpt though. The scow should definitely keep shielded cargo holds, just not sure about the salvage gantry, since it seems to make the shepherd irrelevant. Yes, the shepherd has PD drones, but the scow is so much faster it does not really need them that much. The big difference is that even with the lost small slot, it has the guns of a well-armed full combat frigate, and enough base flux stats and OP for vents and caps it can use that firepower, meaning that unlike the shepherd the scow is dangerous en masse against destroyers and even light cruisers. The shepherd does have mining stats the scow lacks, but those are not very important and there are far more efficient miners than the shepherd anyway. I'm fairly certain that the OP costs for non-modular hullmods are arbitrary, since the player can't normally see them, and since shielded cargo holds and salvage gantry are both definitely worth substantially more than 5 op. If they were both truly worth 5/10/15/20 OP each, then there would not be an entire ship dedicated solely to having a salvage gantry, and people would just put shielded cargo holds on their atlases instead of specifically hunting down pirate buffalo, and salvage gantries would just be used on any civilian ships with spare OP.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2022, 02:16:09 PM »

v0.5 released today - Small update that includes some fixes and a nerf to the Scow as suggested by several players - Save Game compatible however you may need to reequip any Scow that is in your current fleet -Changelog on the forum OP and in the RAR has the details.

At this stage I feel CFT is pretty complete with what I set out to do. I do look forward to any ideas people have to improve it so if you have any, please keep them coming.

5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2022, 05:03:12 PM »

That feeling where, after a break, thinking you've updated all your mods so you come back to give feedback, only to find no, you didn't update the mod.  :'(

Been playing recently, I'll try to give an update on fleets. If nothing else, I've managed to figure out how to restrain myself from going straight to drug running. Load up on Salvage gantries and go mining!
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2022, 08:24:42 PM »

That feeling where, after a break, thinking you've updated all your mods so you come back to give feedback, only to find no, you didn't update the mod.  :'(
In the latest update I agreed with you and implemented your suggestion and I am a bit confused so please clarify the statement.
Been playing recently, I'll try to give an update on fleets. If nothing else, I've managed to figure out how to restrain myself from going straight to drug running. Load up on Salvage gantries and go mining!
Well personally I do not smuggle, it is just that I thought the game lacked a smuggling faction that was not a bunch of pirates. I do like having some cargo space that is not scannable though for those times I pick up things while scavenging that some factions think are no nos. Smugglers are gonna smuggle though and I do not judge so have at it :)

5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2022, 10:22:07 PM »

To clarify, I forgot to download the update!
At the moment I'm having fun accumulating Danube and freighters and scavanging/mining. Additionally the sheer number of drones plus their destroyer size means they can body small fleets, especially with the two cruisers hiding in the system, and their mining power with Nex means I can easily fill up their holds, and then work through them at a reasonable speed due to the salvage gantries with commodity forging mod.

And the time it takes for me to Scourge things means I also got the excuse to supply the pirate planet in the system, so i have a decent fleet without leaving the system.

Edit: Just noted on the Carrack one of the two medium ballistic rear turrets are a medium and the other is a small. Is that deliberate?

Extra edit:
Tried the new inferno missiles, (badly misnamed there), they're very good against things without full coverage shields. Like volley rockets we're, potentially too good.
I'll try to do some dedicated testing if fleets later.

Additionally, I've fallen in love with the Danube. I'd prefer it if the arcs for its turrets were widened from 180 to 270, or angled for better 360 overlap, but otherwise its a massively upsized Shepard. Sure, no missiles or surveying, but it makes up for it with a decent destroyer body, being a discount ox, and having so many fighters that on attack it turns things into laser balls of death.

I wouldn't garuntee it vs a frigate, but neither would I a mule. That said while it had worse far range presence I'm not sure I'd garuntee a mule would beat it. While Scows are potentially better combatants, the sheer AA coverage means I'm strongly considering just not getting any and using the Danube as a fighter escort. I'm unsure how it would be worth counterbalancing. Possibly 1 less fighter wing? Or I making a combat version  2 less and a medium or small slot.

That said, I kept around the starting frigate to try, while it can reliably bring at least 1 gun on target in frigate battles, the drones are useless. Their shielded drones with 1 pd gun, they can't reliably counter missiles (but they do pull ok work on fighters). As drones, they don't really need shields, and their range is so low they can't contribute in battle. I honestly would prefer mining drones as they've got a longer leash and while fragile, cam put I'm work against missiles.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 04:30:12 AM by 5ColouredWalker »
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5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2022, 03:50:19 AM »

Ok, about to do some 'expeditioning in force'

There's some more thoughts above, but here's some thoughts from some simulations before I go trying to do a mostly Carter's and vanilla expeditioning (Because judging you on mods is unfair)

ship notes
Testing the Sloop, the huge OP made me want to try it out as of Overdriven frigate... Unfortuneately it's body means this is pure trap, but it can fight hounds! I've a feeling that the best way to field this would be to slap converted hangers on it. Beyond that, it's just a Dram with reduced toughness, slightly better logistics, too much op and odd weapon mounts. On one hand, changing it too much makes it not worth having in the mod, on the other hand, I'm not sure why it's really needed? The extra OP are nice from a logistics standpoint though.
I'd consider changing the mounts to more Dram like, (possibly keeping the 4 if you want, more regarding fields of fire), and either toughening it so it to dram toughness to make it slightly less of a trap fighting option, or throwing in integrated fighters.

Likewise, the Asteria looks promosing. 3 Medium turrets, integrated range unit. However 2 small PD are useless, and it needs some form of PD or it's going to need heavy cover... That said, if you swapped them for 2 small missiles, either turret or forward facing, it looks like it might be able to take a mule... Sometimes. Right now, it has enough OP to be a tempting trap for combat, or a nice useful logistical peice.

Speaking of combat with logisticals, the Danube... It can eat a Mule reliably, or a Enforcer in player control. Not fast mind, but either it should be listed a combat logistical, or needs a nerf. I'd suggest raising the OP to 7 and dropping a fighter bay (Borer to leave it more offensive, mining aux to leave it more defensive.). That said, if you want to move it to a more combat role, perhaps swap the physical and energy turrets. [Personally for combat, either 2 pulse lasers and 2 vulcans or a Assault and Duall Machine Gun and 2 pd lasers, then a useful  mod like hardened shields. Tac Lasers can be used instead for far support.]

I haven't bothered testing the Vergulde in combat. It looks like it should do it's job on the strategy layer, but I can see it has too few mounts and bad combat stats. It's got enough OP it could work with converted hangers, but honestly it's probably just worth dropping the OP.

Barque: Feels awkward to use, but does it's job as a destroyer ok. Homestly, given it's op points, I'd upgrade it's DP and make either it;s missile or it's front kinetics to medium, otherwise it just does it's job a little too slowly to feel good to use. I'd rather an enforcer honestly. Also, I find it does best with vanilla weapons, not Carter's ones.

Jackdaw: The Frigate version to the Barque... It feels like everything the Barque does wrong, the Jackdaw does right. Arguablly the missile slot could be dropped to small and flux stats considered improving, but I'm not going to actually suggest touching it yet.

Carrack: Unlike it's fuel counterparts, this isn't a trap in combat! It's PD could use some beefing up perhaps (Not reliably against a mule's double salamander salvo), and it handles like a pregnant sow, but it can take a atlas or mule, and with great care could take a enforcer in theory (Fluxed one out a few times.). That said while it can kinda fight, it's not tough enough to actually fight, but the missile slots are great for Pilums. I'd consider marking this a combat transport, but honestly if you're taking it into combat there's a decent chance of loosing it... Call it borderline.
If you wanted to push it firmly into transport, maybe drop one of the medium front guns. If you want to push it towards a support, drop a gun and turn the section in the front into a 1-2 wing hanger, because it looks like it has a hanger on the front, but I'm assuming that's for the gantry.

Brigantine: A wider, up dunned and down defended mule... I'd consider dropping the front energy mounts to 2 small or 1 medium, and probably raise it's op by 1 since it handidly spanks a mule, but needs careful hands if it's to take a enforcer... Also looking at the mule, probably chop 100 off it's transport capacity, since then it really is a fair trade off on the mule. Trading resilience for firepower. Or sacrificing the firepower for a mule with more OP for logistics but that's bigger and more fragile.

Barkentine: Looks like a Gemini, plays like a combined Gemni/Condor that's combat hardened. It's a nice addition to the fleet. I treat it more like the meant for combat version of a Danube. It's ok. Possibly too much DP, but I'm not certain how much dropping 10ish would really change it. Honestly, don't touch it.

Clipper: Took a moment to realise it's a Venture, made more manueverable and dropping 2 missile slots, a fighter slot, and some storage for salvage rigs and much better combat performance...  Arguably worth having at least 1 in the fleet for the bigger salvage bonus, or as a 'fleets first cruiser', except you leave a Pirate Eagly just laying around in system... Perhaps swap the pirate eagle for this?

Raven: The Standard builds are useless. Ignore the medium slot, fill the front missiles with either long range support or anti shield and give it a Large weapon. Attach PD, guard with fighters. Also, the large in the standard build is a PD, but it's not the sort of PD that does redonculous amount of Frag so it can delete cruisers once they're stripped.  For short range weapons, this ship needs some careful watching, but makes it a interesting alternative to a sunder. For the longer range weapons, it's a nice sniper support platform. Only thing I'd change is default load outs.

Lennox: It's an option, but not one I'd ever use. 2 small missiles can be useful, especially for inferno spam. 2 small forward ballistics are kinda eh, and then there's 2 energy to use for either pd or additionall attack... It's... Not something I use. It's very clearly a support destroyer, and I suppose those that like living on the tac layer can use it though.

Griffon: An... Interesting but actually usable layout. Fighters are hard set but to a group that looks like it might be usable in large fleet battles, and in testing it sort of plays like a light cruiser with a nice fighter compliment.... However for 33 dp? No. God no. It needs massively more OP for that to be viable, and possibly swapping the medium energy to a large. Having done some testing, it's probably good around 25 though. [Against the 20 point carriers it stomps them, against the eagle it's a grinding victory with some stumbling. Against a dominator it's a clear dominator win. That said, in a fleet fight it shouldn't be 1v1ing those, so putting it below that seems too low.]

Chester: Take a Griffon, trade Armor and speed for weapons, and 3 chooseable fighters instead of 4 preset, and drop it to 20 OP... This should probably be 25ISH as well. Add some armor on and you could just call it a heavy variant of the Griffon. As is, you can probably give it no hull mods, 3 ok fighters and medium weapons and make a good all rounder, give it 3 great fighter bays and under arm it to make it a Heron Equivilent, or over arm it and maybe grab 1 set of pd fighters/claws and have a fragile but ok cruiser, makes for a flexible all rounder.

Coventry: 7 Inferno Rockets + Missile Storage Expansion? Ok. Honestly, this with a missile commander and expanded racks, possibly even salvaged hull, just stand back, hold the fire button, and watch things go away. I'm not sure what the point of it's rear energies are, they don't seem to be useful for energy. Side weapons are probably best just as more PD... Forward kinetics use for either High Ex (Ships without full shields get confused by infernos) or kinetics (To bash down full circle shields.). OP feels in an OK place because the capitals (Except conquest.) can smash it before inferno spam smashes them... I'd probably consider this an inferno 'carrier' more than a cruiser.

Kerberos: What if midline Dominator, but instead of missiles/large, all mediums? I don't have the weapons to build this in my perfered combat form to test if it's as bad as it sounds (Think 6 Gravitons and 4 Maulers), but slap chainguns and phase lances with overrides and it does work. I'll file this as interesting and does what it should do so far... Could possibly loose some speed since it starts at 85 and that's quick. Doesn't need to drop to 30 like the dominator.... Honestly, while 85 feels quick I'm not sure what it should be... maybe 70's?

Triton: What the Legion wishes it was... In fact, I'm pretty sure you took a legion, fiddled with the stats slightly, gave it recall device instead, and set all the slots to medium at most... Usable like a upsized Chester but better for bombing and worse for dedicated fighting.

Freebooter: A... Utility Dreadnaught? I mean, it can facetank an Onslaught for you, and you're incentivised to pilot it by an operations center. It's got a salvage gantry which is great for getting the maximum bonus... But it has 2 large kinetic mounts, it's fighters are forced into non-kinetic harassers, and it has 2 forward mediums that are just sort of there. And 2 small missiles. Maybe for the PD missiles?

Scow: Unlike most Carter's ships, doesn't have flux management problems. Feels like it'll be at an ok point once Hellfires/Infernos are adjusted. That said, personally I'd swap the med missiles for 2 smalls or a medium laser for better weapon balance.

Odam: A pretty good fleet anchor. Unusually slow for everything else, but it functions like a small appogee should. All small slots does hold it back in the damage department, but that's not what it's supposed to be.... Possibly could use speeding up to keep up with everyone else though.
[close]

weapon/fighter notes
Fog of War and Culverin: Vulcan alternate, however unless a mod has changed mine vulcan cost 1 more or less depending which one I'm looking at OP and have much less flux output. Skip hard.
Piaxhan: Looks like a flak canon in a small slot, for 7. I should try it, but I'm not going to bother at that op... That said looking at the stats I might try it in medium slots later despite how derpi it'd look.
Demi-Culverins: Very short range, not much better than dart guns in kinetic damage. I'm sure there's a reason for them, but with their high op i'm not sure what it is. (That said, I don't have one in front of me so I'm going off memory.)
Dart Guns: Due to raw damage a good contender for Dual autocanons... I'm not sure why they have emp damage, since it's not enough to do anything from what I can tell. Also, as soon as you reach armor they become useless due to how low damage they do. Probably part of the point, I consider them a worthy sidegrade.
Falconet: It costs more than a assault gun to do more per hit damage and almost 2/3rd real damage at much less range. Theoretically better dps than a light mortar, but a light mortar runs at 2dp, longer range, and higher damage. Hard pass.
Inferno missiles: Odd description, should mention that they deliberately overfly and split into multiple missiles dealing 50 damage. Says they do 400dps, I'm not sure what to make of the title card without going into the code and I'm not a codemonkey. In damage effect, they do very little, splash damage around the hull of large targets, mostly miss small targets. Good in mass fights, a distraction vs frigates. That said, great ammo capacity, especially with trading cargo for +50% (Speaking of which, that hull mod is missing a % sign.). That said, possibly need a nerf because unless fighting someone with 360 shields they confuse the AI's shield prioritisation. Also the range on the card/rangefinder is far shorter than reality. Effective range is about 150% what's listed. Honestly, possibly under OP now. That said, why does it have a emp listing? It doesn't do emp damage. Also card should mention the second stage and how it deliberately overflies before turning into a missile targeting the rear/sides.
Edit: Much like the AI doesn't know how to use shields, the AI somehow doesn't know that it should be firing these constantly as if it werean autocanon due to the sheer amount of ammo it has and how they fly.
Volley Rocket: Post nerf... Too slow IMO. As fast as it was was far too op. Honestly, probably a balanced sidegrade to annihilator rocket pods. That said, Volley's have more ammo, so maybe unballanced.
Point Defence Missiles: A direct fire version of Inferno Rockets, usable against fighters... Honestly, too useful as anti-ship weapons and ships do use them in my experience. Does an annoying sound count as a balance feature? Honestly I'd drop ammo, increase OP to 8, and reduce volume.
Hellfire Launchers: 1 bursts into even more infernos... Due to how their effective damage is so low and they get far less damage, actually a nerf, even if they hit the rear more consistently, though they still confuse shield AI. On one hand I think it needs a buff compared to infernos. On the other hand, I think Infernos and this need to be nerfed to act like sallamanders/mirvs for AI reasons. If you do so, you would need to add more EMP or direct damage however.
Sledge: As far as I can tell, there's no large missiles on Carter's ships... So why does this exist? I could be wrong though.
Wavemotion Pulse Lasers: Sidegrade to pulse lasers. EMP damage is too low to be worth mentioning, overall an eh.
Wave Burst PD Lasers: A nice alternate to pulse lasers. I need to use them more. Also range is enough to be used as threatening weapons especially in medium. That said, given most medium energy slots are attack orientated, the medium pd kinda has to be attack useful.
Shredder: I don't like close attack, and this faction doesn't really seem built for it. That said, here's a kinetic assault chain gun, slightly more range, slightly less damage. It's not for my playstile but not calling for a nerf/buff. I think it's fine for what it is.
Spread Shot Chaingun: A less damaging chaingun, but uses far less flux. Also spread which can be nice for catching frigates, but I don't like chainguns... A side grade, but I'm not sure it's a worthy one.
Basilisk: What if your chaingun had 800 range? Not quite a perfect comparison, but close. Ok for killing frigates/destroyers, otherwise too low damage compared to it's alternates. This may sound negative, but honestly don't change it, it's a good sidegrade.
Wrecker: Like the Basalisk, an alternate to the 7-800 range high ex. However, hitting at 500ex every 2.5 seconds... Honestly, probably hits too hard, it effectively 1 shots frigate and sometimes destroyer armor, making them easy kills (If it hits, and it's not that rare). Possibly raise the OP? (I think it's 12, probably should go to a mauler's 13 or maybe 14... very maybe.)
Auto Canon: Gauss Cannon on Steroids by High-Ex.... The ammo is enough that it's not worth mentioning. It's something outside the game to such an extent balance is a nebulous concept for it. That said, I tend to prefer Gauss Cannons so it's probably in a ok place.
Bombard: I... Nothing compares in base, but I see no reason to use it. Other modded PD does it better, either as a dual pd/huge frag output (but yours is much better on flux), or as a dual pd/combat weapon with non-frag with extreme range and spread.

Apollo LPC: Frag/Emp harraser. Honestly, I thought it'd be trash but it's ok. Maybe worth an extra ship per flight, but that might be too much, I probably need to play with it more.
Brig LPC: Feels like too few for what it does, but I need to play more with carriers.
Skiff LPC: I need to play with it more, but from looks this is what a Warthog should be, I look forward to mixing these with Broadswords.
Mizzon: Arguably worse than a Mining drone swarm. Costs 1 op, has shields and a small pd laser... Probably ok for converted hangers for PD, but unless you're hard pressed I'd probably never use it. (Possibly ok with the mod that allows you to add fighters that don't replenish. Honestly needs 1-2 more per wing.)
Cutter: These are great! Amazing PD and fighters! Also drones to save on crew, and in good number. Probably at a ok balance compared to Broadswords/Skiffs as a energy alternate, but could possibly use more op or remove the Fog.
[close]


Ok, so that's 3 mill and like... 4 hours of testing/writing. Going to go back in game time and figure out a exploration fleet in the future.

Edit:
Because my brain won't let me sleep, a general faction review:
Carter's Freetraders are a solid midline faction. Their ships tend to be fast, relatively lightly armored with ok shields, and somewhat strained on flux venting. As a fleet it has great logistical or modification support with most ships having a generous op budget and plenty of salvage gantries and shielded holds for smuggling, salvaging and mining. (Could easily be vulture scavengers in Nex.).
The logistical Boons however come at a combat cost. Unless combat specced the relatively poor venting and undersized mounts on ships means you can easily be out ranged and out gunned, forcing you to use your speed or non-faction ships to survive. Additionally most factions weapons are best considered vanilla alternates, and you'll want many vanilla weapons with a sprinkling of Carter ones unless you're focusing on short range and safety overrides to blow through the opposition, with help from damper fields and speed boosts. This is not to say there aren't good combat ships, because there are. Especially in the carrier department, with it possible for you to field a unending swarm of drones in addition to a fast midtech strike force.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 02:40:38 AM by 5ColouredWalker »
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5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2022, 06:31:25 PM »

Had to go back pretty far, so here's some thoughts on the other ships/weapons since they spawned. There'll be more to do because of irl interuptions but:

ships
Retourschip: This one based on it's mount isn't a trap like the medium and small fuel tankers, though it's op is probably a little high for the logistic support.
Jacht: A flatly superior Valkyrie logistically... It's got enough small guns it might not be a trap in a fight, but the balistics are in the back, so I'm not going to test it beyond 'risky possible trap'. I may be wrong.
Cutty: I originally didn't realise, but this is a midline Medusa. No mediums again, and no missiles, but it does manage to put in work. Arguably you could drop one small balistic and some op, or change it to a missile and possibly still drop it's op a little. I'd suggest raising DP to 12 since it's... Well, a Midline Medusa. Has some trouble with larger ships though.
Dromon: High op Carrier. This one actually has a decent dp cost for effect. 2 of the fighter groups being set is odd. Could use freeing up, larger mounts, or possibly less op.
Exetor: suitable superfreighter. Unlike the mid size not combat suitable due to mounts and fighter points being set, which makes its OP ridiculous.
Bombadeir:  9 missile slots to the Coventry 7, and more medium, in exchange for all other slots being smalls in a PD layout, plus autoforge. Front missiles could probably be swapped for a large, but this is what the Griffon wishes it was. Not sure why it has the Apollo's though. For missile spam while you're missile spamming?
Galleon: Bombardier made dreadnaught. With effectively 2 specials as a missile autoforge (Yay) and cannister flack (meh). Quality depends solely on what missiles you're packing. Actually not super op heavy, so maybe balanced.
Bourbon: A... choice. 4 medium missile, 2 medium kinetic, 2 large energy, healthy flux pool and good pd spread. Makes for a decent dreadnaught.... but it has a 110 arc fortress shield, which is a facetanking shield on a too small angle. Need to test more though.
[close]


weapons
Saker: This is what short range raven's should be equiped with. It functions as good anti shield/hull breaker but minimal armor damage. All round a great weapon. Could arguably have more range, and possibly less damage/flux to bring it into line with a Hephestus assault gun.
Carronades: A... Fragmentation Hammer allternate? More ammo and all 3 categories which is nice, and can do large bursts... A niche-weapon, but an acceptable niche.
Katyusha missile: Frag/Emp missile, turns out it's not just on the long range harrasment bomber, and it reloads! Effectively a Pilum that's built as a MRM instead of a LRM, but looses shield peircing. Ok for support ships. Emp is only really noticeable against frigates or if you've massed them, and massed inferno is probably better.
[close]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 01:27:57 AM by 5ColouredWalker »
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2022, 06:57:20 PM »

Hey sorry I haven't replied, been sick the last week. I'll go over all your notes and get back to you with a detailed response once I'm 100%.

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2022, 09:26:25 PM »

Hey sorry I haven't replied, been sick the last week. I'll go over all your notes and get back to you with a detailed response once I'm 100%.

All good, free service and irl. Just gives me time to make more notes.

Edit: Done some in force exploring. Not as much as I'd like (Like to grab a capital and some more carriers, as the fleet I had was basically primary combat ships with some Danubes/odd inbuilt fighters), some expansions too my notes that I'll expand on later.

Carter's feels like a fleet that works best as a mix Carters/Normal or going heavy on the carrier aspect supporting fleet anchors. As a dedicated fleet, it really needs to pick it's battles, but is really good on the strategy layer.
Inferno/Helfires actually need a solid nerf, and their range being listed properly. As they are the AI doesn't know how to use them, and when you're using them... Well, I had a Bombadeir with 5 Hellfires (Small missiles unfilled because I didn't have enough weapons when I made it) eat the red planet fleet/a small ordo with a radiant alive while odams and other ships body blocked. Total cost, 2 Odams and a salvaged conquest (The only non-carter's ship in the fleet.)

Odams in real fleet actions aren't quite as sturdy as they look. They can hold up ok vs cruisers for their size as destroyers, but they're the only real fleet anchor ship, but without fortress shields or a similar system (Active flares is nice but not super useful) capital's evaporate them. Perhaps if Carter's markets spawned Apogee's as well it works, but they tend to spawn low/mid tech+carters. Additionally, they have 8 speed, slowing the fleet a fair bit. But then again, they've the OP to fit Augmented Drive Fields if you don't have enough Danube's (I was off by 1 after a salvage and felt it in my soul.)

I will note, the tendency towards smaller mounts does wear on Carter's fleets a bit, at least those with lower carrier support, and with Carter's Cruisers either being over costed or not knowing how to use their missiles properly, it seems mostly best to skip cruisers other than the Kerberos and Chestor (Neither of which I happened to have, having been trying the others... Perhaps the game was telling me something by having 5 Kerb's spawn in the market, but I just didn't have the weapons for them on hand.)

Also, the scow's mount's are awkward for damage balance. Perhaps if they were energy/missile? Or Kinetic/Energy? Otherwise they're defineately early game ships before diversifying into Danubes/Jackdaws/Odam's with proper freighters.

Will list my actual fleet composition later, wanted to post my thoughts before sleeping.

Extra Edits: No cheats to test things more thoroughly, though I did consider it for some Kerberosi.
previous fleet comp
For all, assume max Capacitor's/Vents unless noted. Basically true too.
Capital:
Conquest, Gauss, Wreckers, Hurricane Mirv's, Hellfire Rockets, and PD, with Hardened Shields and Intergrated targetting units. Like normal for a Conquest, good bully ship, folded against a radient. But since it was a throw away collected capital, I can't exactly blame you. Weapons did well, it hit rather hard. Except hellfire because it didn't know how to use them.

Bombardier: 5 Hellfire Launchers, PD. Full Cap and No Vents, because not need. Salvaged Hull/Armor, missile storage expansion, hardened shields, reinforced bulkheads, efficiency overhaul and aug drive field. It honestly has way too much OP unless loading it with missiles from other mods with super high costs, even if using Infernos in the 4 smalls would have worked wonders. In the AI's hands it was useless because it doesn't know how far it's missiles actually goes. In player hands, click and hold to delete a small remnant ordo while other ships play ablative armor.

Coventry: 7 Inferno, 2 Autocannon, 2 Phase Lance, hardened shield, integrated targeting, missile storage expansion. If it knew how to use Inferno's it'd be lovely and I planned on having other ships serve as PD. Unfortunately as mentioned, it doesn't, so a glorified bombardier backup.

3*Odam: 3 Light Autocannons, 2 IR Pulse/Wavemotion Pulse, 1 Breacher MRM/Swarmer SRM. Hardened Shield, Salvaged Hull, Missile Storage Expansion, Salvaged Armor, Torpedo Spec (Another mod, faster tougher missiles with less manoeuvrability). Not as tanky as expected, but still pretty damn hard. I think optimal ends up being Wavemotion with Swarmer SRM or Point Defence Missiles. Yes, Salvaged Hull means that there's just under 5K hull which does make it less resielient, but it's got 600 armor and 18000flux cap at .6 shield damage, so I'll take the +20% missiles. Only 25 flux vents because that cover's things comfortably. You could drop vents and swap torp spec for a hull boosting mods and slightly less vents at the cost of no longer covering flux. Overall, a great ship in it's class and in small battles, and a ok ship in large battles. Oh, I understand you giving them Dart Guns, their slow spead means unlike everyone else running isn't a option and kiting rarely turned out to be one, so gonna throw darts on them.

Raven: 3x Volley Rockets, Devastator Canon/Hephaestus Assault Gun/Saker, 2 pd and a Vulcan, Flux Distributor and Aux Thrustors. Saker means changing the missiles for something for proper effect and can't really manage it's flux, but there's no other great missiles and I didn't have annihilators. Hephaestus makes flux barely manageable and is a good damage/aim match up. Devastator acts a psuedo large pd and makes flux a dream, but is unreliable... I was leaning into the 'It's a sunder' and it did ok work, but nothing amazing. Might try for Gauss/Autocannons next run.

2X Cutty: 2 Assault, Railgun and Autocanon, 5x PD, hardened stabalised shields and a flux distributor. Did ok work. In retrospect, going to changge the two forward PD for 1 Vulcan and upgrade to 2 railguns if possible. Leaves 1 OP free... Just barely manages flux and easily recoverable when it overextends. All in all a nice ship.

2x Jackdaw: 4 Darts, Anhialator Rocket Pod, 2 PD, Missile Storage, Flux Distributor, Salvaged Armor, Armored Turrets. It put in great work and surprisingly tanky.

Berkentine: 1 Dagger Wing, 1 Broadsword Wing, 2 Vulcans, 2 Pulse, Hardened Shields and Integrated targeting, and 18 Vents (Didn't have anything to put in it.). Could easily drop 10 OP, that said due to the fights I rarely got to deploy it. Did ok when I did though.

4x Danube: 2 Pulse and 2 Vulcan, salvaged armor, expanded cargo, 18 vent/capacitor. A dream support destroyer. Fragile in heavy action but still useful in it. More is always needed.

Asteria: 2 Gravitons, Mauler, Vulcan, Hardened Shields and Integrated Targeting Unit. I found the build that can kite a mule! Didn't deploy it because OMG no.

Carrak: Due to a lack of weapons, it had 4 PD, 2 Vulcans, and a Hypervelocity and Wrecker. Expanded Cargo, Efficiency, Boosters. Didn't end up needing deploying it.

Overall Notes: Fleet felt like I thought broadly, responsive, great on the strategic, and fragile with problems dealing damage outside of players spamming inferno/hellfire. But great at punishing Explorers/Pirates out of position. Against Remnant, outside of the 'I'll just die' of the Radiant it was a case of 'fall back and shoot, and keep falling back!'. That said, an Odam I was piloting (Shield Expertise for .5 damage to flux) lasted almost 15 seconds, buying precious breathing room for reinforcements so I could take over the Bombadier, and move it behind the reinforcements to start unloading. Another lasted almost 10! This means that a Odam holding fire can hold out about as long as a Conquest that's fighting back.
[close]

Take 2 (Smashed by surprise Nex Remnant)
Post shopping update!
3 Odam, Same build except Darts and Torpedo Spec swapped for Vents since I didn't really have any other space. May improve doing some merchenteering before exploring.

2 Ravens: 3 Annhialator Rockets, Vulcan, 2 PD, Gauss Cannon, Integrated Targeting, Flux Distributor. Not going to be even close to venting enough, but they're sniper support.

2 Cutties: As before, but swapping 2 PD for a Vulcan, and now with 2 Vulcan.

2 Jackdaw: Due to logistical dificulties, one's the same, 1 has 4 dual autocanons instead.
4 Berkantine with Broadsword and Cutter Standards (I look forward to grabbing Skiffs). 2 Pulse, 2 Vulcan, 20/20, hardened shields, ITU and FCA, so they are psuedo tanks.
5 Danube. Not enough Danube
1 Astera
2 Carrack, 2 Pilums, Basalist, Heavy Autocannon, Expanded Holds, 30/30 and full Vulcan/PD for a support/combat transport.

2 Chester: For AI management, 3 Volley Rocket's on the nose, 1 Wavemotion Beam, 2 Heavy Autocannons (Volley's are too dodgeable. Hopefully I can sub in Hyper velocities.). 2 Broadswords and a Xyphos (Supplementing tons of Kinetic with Ion Beams).  The relative lack of generosity of OP on these ships feels painful to build in comparison, since it's not 'slap what you want on, and maybe some mods!'. But perhaps that's why it's DP is 20?

2 Griffen: 2 Katyusha missiles to try them on ships, and because it means a constant stream of 6 launchers per ship for constant emp threat. 1 Wave Motion, 4 autocannons, 4 pd, Flux Distributor.  Fast, lightly armed assault carriers... That I may never deploy due to the redonculous deployment points, but I'll give it a go!

1 Kerberos. Going 4 Hypervelocity, 4 Phase Lance, PD/Vulcan/Flack, 30/30, ITUU, Flux Distributar and Coil Adjunt. No where near enough flux, but it'll be interesting to see if it does work. May rebuild it into a SO Ship.

1 Freebooter (I have a capital!): 2 Autocanon, 2 Hypervelocity, 2 Wavemotion Kinetic Burst, 2 Katyusha, and full PD compliment with double flak on the rear. Hardened shields and ITU built in with Extended and Shield Conversion Front to turn it into a tank, with my piloting bringing it to .65 Dam/Flux, and Expanded Mags for the Wavemotions. Ridiculously fast with manoeuvring jets given Odam's sit at 60 (At this point they need 10/15 on comparison.). One problem I somehow didn't notice before, the Freebooter's shields are off centre. Centre line appears to be through the right forward missile, which is aggravating.
Also turns out it can eat paragons and outranges them handedly Might need to be upped to 50OP if not 60.
Oh, and -7 Vents, because the Freebooter has more than enough flux actually!
[close]

Edit:
I will note, while Hellfires and Inferno > than Remnant, Freeboota Autocannon is not. Too much pressure... That and/or I chose the wrong ships for support, and they need massed Odam's to act as a shield wall.
That said, it and carriers feel much better and isn't as cheesy.
Also, tried the Kerb... Just way too little flux capacity. Put in work though! Long range HV's to wear on shields until close, then turn them off for Phase Lances.

Take 3
3 Odam, Same build except Darts and Torpedo Spec swapped for Vents since I didn't really have any other space. May improve doing some merchenteering before exploring.

2 Ravens: 3 Annhialator Rockets, Vulcan, 2 PD, Gauss Cannon, Integrated Targeting, Flux Distributor. Not going to be even close to venting enough, but they're sniper support.

3 Cutties: As before, but swapping 2 PD for a Vulcan, and now with 2 Vulcan.

2 Jackdaw: Due to logistical dificulties, one's the same, 1 has 4 dual autocanons instead.
2 Berkantines with Broadswords and Skiffs. 20/18 with Hardened Shields, ITU's and FCA's to make them tankier.
8 Danube. Enough Danube?
1 Astera
3 Carrack, 2 Pilums, Wrecker and HV, Expanded Holds, 30/30 and full Vulcan/PD for a support/combat transport. Due to economic downturn, mining lasers for laser pd, but that means they contribute to mining, so eh. Expanded Cargo and Efficiency Overhaul.

2 Chester: For AI management, 3 Volley Rocket's on the nose, 1 Wavemotion Beam, 2 Heavy Autocannons (Volley's are too dodgeable. Hopefully I can sub in Hyper velocities.). 2 Broadswords and a Xyphos (Supplementing tons of Kinetic with Ion Beams).  The relative lack of generosity of OP on these ships feels painful to build in comparison, since it's not 'slap what you want on, and maybe some mods!'. But perhaps that's why it's DP is 20?

2 Griffen: 2 Katyusha missiles to try them on ships, and because it means a constant stream of 6 launchers per ship for constant emp threat. 1 Wave Motion, 4 autocannons, 4 pd, Flux Distributor.  Fast, lightly armed assault carriers... That I may never deploy due to the redonculous deployment points, but I'll give it a go!

1 Kerberos. 2 Shredder, 4 HMG, 2 Gravitons, 2 Wavemotions for armor peeling, and 2 Ion Cannons for control, Safety Overides. Then built in Hardened Shields [Lets it go harder] and Hardened Systems.

4 Vegulde, High Resolution, Expanded Cargo, Unstable Injector, PD, 19/20.

Freebooter, same as second.
[close]

I also tried out the Bourbon more... Despite costing more, this one readily outfluxes itself, has less shield coverage despite being the one with fortress shields, and can't eat a Paragon. Build Below.
Spoiler
Bourbon. To not feel cheating, 4 Anhialator Rocket Pods, 2 Railguns, 2 Heavy Needlers, 2 Large Wave Motions, and plenty of PD. ITU and Hardened shields built in again. Shields are front so only extended this time, so much less shield coverage, but potentially tankier due to fortress. Flux Adjunt/Distributor for extra tank and because this one doesn't hae enough venting unlike the freebooter.  Aux Thrusters because the shields is lacking in coverage. -3 Capacitators.

Atttempt 2, cheating all in. Rockets become Hellfire, don't have other large energy weapons so no changes. -3 Cap instead. Eat the Paragon half way through launchers, as the missiles confuse the shields but the wave motions means it ends up restarting it at the front every time.
[close]

Everything was going great with run 3, even managed to pick up the carrier capital from a bounty to try more, however since the games on a portable hard drive for reasons several parts of starsector including the save were corrupted. :( [Somehow the record of the campaign was replaced with data about X-Com 2....]

That said, my feeling for the fleet remains the same as the initial review. It seems that Carter's Freetraders work best as a highly mobile but somewhat fragile midline fleet that works best as a group of tanks out front with faster ships doing punishing and some really solid back line in the form of carriers, missiles, and Autocannons.
And having played with autocannons, albeit with expanded mags, even in long battles so far I've yet to go below 50 ammo. Either the reserve needs to be neutered (Say, down to 10-15) or just removed treating it as a regular weapon... Also, there's nothing quite like hitting a Frigate at extreme range, where due to the angle there's just enough time between shots that the ship goes from 0 flux and full hull to a exploded wreck with one shot from 2 cannons. It's hillarious.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 12:20:41 AM by 5ColouredWalker »
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Oik

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2022, 11:04:52 AM »

Hi Dazs

Just been trying your mod and had a few issues getting it to run on linux - case sensitivities.

To get ot to load up I changed;
CFT_salvagedshield.png
to
cft_salvagedshield.png

and

CFT_Katyusha_hardpoint.png
to
CFT_katyusha_hardpoint.png

Thanks for your hard work.  ;)
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2022, 11:28:32 AM »

Thank you for the heads up. I'm currently working on an update for Hiver Swarm but I will add it to my TO-DO list for CFT (cft) :)

5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2022, 03:01:08 PM »

This time I've started small with plans to explore the smaller fleets more. Review coming while at work because I stayed up way too late.

Combined Broadswords and Skiffs are as powerful as I thought. The Carter's energy damage ones could be better since they also have frag but I've yet to test them. The Frigate Carriers can also carry those two handedly leaving Brigantines free for super fighters or heavy bombers (Cobra+Broadsword for example) with Reserve Deployment. Starting as a heavy carrier fleet works quite well.

Fighting off a early invasion I got to see how the AI uses Volleys and Hellfires more, the AI definitely treat Hellfires as the Large MIRV's [Wait for the shields to be down/near down, any that don't smack the front are irrelevent), in which case limiting the range of their second stage should balance them fairly well (Making them not ridiculous in player hands). They have lots of spread but they still put in work. Volleys feel too slow against Frigates/Destroyers but they do manage it for Cruiser sized engagements and large clusters, however the missile layout of Carter's ship's in the cruiser weight class makes Volley's less useful for most. (Need more forward facing smalls while the side ones are mediums for the hellfires.)

A Autocannon Raven outranges a Paragon, allowing it to stay in a huge station fight until CR degrades below 30, and still have around 20 ammo without expanded mags, while actively helping to the point sometimes I can't shoot/miss due to hitting wrecks instead. I need to fiddle with it more to see how well it works in a fleet backline, but definitely needs the ammo cap nerf... Also, the Raven can easily keep up with the flux requirements. Given the intended role I don't want to ask for less damage or range as a nerf, but maybe it needs more flux to go from 'easy artillery and single shot damage' to 'If you put this on a destroyer, it's a dedicated artillery ship.' [Also, a memory from the wiped saves, having a Autocannon makes encircling enemy forces a lot more risky. I also hit an ally while backlining in the station fight, was funny sending a destroyer limping off after tearing into it's armor, I could imagine the angry radio chatter.]

Also, just ended up skipping Scows for Danubes. They're that good/ok in combat and if you're not smuggling their logistics are that much better. Also saving up for the destroyer freighter for smuggling isn't that hard... Though Scows do provide more leeway if you forget just how much illegal cargo you have.

As an aside, I need to do more Safety Overrides after testing the Clipper. I'm getting a feeling that lots of ships were designed with that in mind. It might help make the  Jackdaw good instead of ok. [Though I do want to try it with heavy armor/armored turrets/salvaged armor to try and make it's Damper Field useful... Also want to try an Atropis/Cyclone Reaper build.]

Edit: Clipper works well with SO, and it's OP is a good size for going either heavy long range combat with plenty o' mods, heavy short range with SO, or ok at either and logistics mods. Definitely fits as a 'babies first cruiser'. I have noticed it's a bit odd in the dedicated salvage line of Destroyer Danube/Cruiser Clipper/Capital Name I'm not remembering  in that it doesn't have fighter bays, even built in. That said I don't feel like they need to be there in the clipper at this time.

Jackdaw with SO also works, enough for there to be space and potentially mods stripping out some vents, but the Flux Cap is too low. Also very dependent on what missile you give it. Testing it against a regular Jackdaw, it definitely needs Atropos or Hellfire in Frigate matchups at least for tracking, or perhaps Breach MRM (Don't have enough to test multiple vs Destroyer at the moment), but it takes it from 'interesting' to good. Annhialator's however work for creating breathing room and damage but might not cut it on the high end.
Makes me feel like this is a 'accidental' LP faction :P Given they're on good terms with the Pathers at game start (but terrible with the church? Obviously too high tech for the church, but pathers are looking the other way for supplies.) it kinda makes sense. If you squint.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 02:14:40 AM by 5ColouredWalker »
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2022, 03:19:03 PM »

Thank you again for your updated thoughts. I just got around releasing an update for Hiver Swarm and CFT is next on the list but I was a bit backed up at work due to being ill. I should be caught up by tomorrow and hopefully be able to have a patch/update this weekend and I will give your notes serious consideration.

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2022, 05:34:54 AM »

OK I dedicated a good block of time this morning to go through your notes as a working to-do for the next update. I will reply to them individually since there is a limit to how many characters the forum will allow in a post.

To clarify, I forgot to download the update!
At the moment I'm having fun accumulating Danube and freighters and scavanging/mining. Additionally the sheer number of drones plus their destroyer size means they can body small fleets, especially with the two cruisers hiding in the system, and their mining power with Nex means I can easily fill up their holds, and then work through them at a reasonable speed due to the salvage gantries with commodity forging mod.

And the time it takes for me to Scourge things means I also got the excuse to supply the pirate planet in the system, so i have a decent fleet without leaving the system.
Essentially it is part of John Carter's irl Prussia Cove, it was located along the shore with heavy tides and the geography of the area allowed it to draw in wrecked ships and cargo. As part of CFT's lore, I believe I have it in the description, their system had a strong gravity pull and is located in an area that wrecked ships seem to float to. So I recreated that by having several ships and cargo floating around the system. And yes if you explore the entire sector you can field yourself a decent starter fleet. I felt it was on brand for a salvaging faction.
Edit: Just noted on the Carrack one of the two medium ballistic rear turrets are a medium and the other is a small. Is that deliberate?
Nope, just another in the long list of oopsies on my part, I'll have it fixed in this update, ty
Extra edit:
Tried the new inferno missiles, (badly misnamed there), they're very good against things without full coverage shields. Like volley rockets we're, potentially too good.
I'll try to do some dedicated testing if fleets later.
Well I was going on a fire related naming scheme for the explosive missiles, Inferno, Hellfire etc. I am not sure why you feel it is a bad name but I am open to suggestions for a re-brand as long as it fits the lore.
Additionally, I've fallen in love with the Danube. I'd prefer it if the arcs for its turrets were widened from 180 to 270, or angled for better 360 overlap, but otherwise its a massively upsized Shepard. Sure, no missiles or surveying, but it makes up for it with a decent destroyer body, being a discount ox, and having so many fighters that on attack it turns things into laser balls of death.

I wouldn't garuntee it vs a frigate, but neither would I a mule. That said while it had worse far range presence I'm not sure I'd garuntee a mule would beat it. While Scows are potentially better combatants, the sheer AA coverage means I'm strongly considering just not getting any and using the Danube as a fighter escort. I'm unsure how it would be worth counterbalancing. Possibly 1 less fighter wing? Or I making a combat version  2 less and a medium or small slot.
I deploy the Danube as backup PD support, carrier. I am pretty happy with it's performance for what it is but you do make a good case of widening the arcs as it is intended for PD. I think I'll do a combination of re-angling and widening the arcs, either way it will end up with better coverage w/out being OP (i hope).
That said, I kept around the starting frigate to try, while it can reliably bring at least 1 gun on target in frigate battles, the drones are useless. Their shielded drones with 1 pd gun, they can't reliably counter missiles (but they do pull ok work on fighters). As drones, they don't really need shields, and their range is so low they can't contribute in battle. I honestly would prefer mining drones as they've got a longer leash and while fragile, cam put I'm work against missiles.
The PD drone is a proof of concept design. I'll give it another pass with your observations in mind and have an adjustment in the next patch.

Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a]Carter's Freetraders - V 0.5 - 06/04/22
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2022, 08:04:52 AM »

Note: I replied under the spoiler tags.

ship notes
Testing the Sloop, the huge OP made me want to try it out as of Overdriven frigate... Unfortuneately it's body means this is pure trap, but it can fight hounds! I've a feeling that the best way to field this would be to slap converted hangers on it. Beyond that, it's just a Dram with reduced toughness, slightly better logistics, too much op and odd weapon mounts. On one hand, changing it too much makes it not worth having in the mod, on the other hand, I'm not sure why it's really needed? The extra OP are nice from a logistics standpoint though.
I'd consider changing the mounts to more Dram like, (possibly keeping the 4 if you want, more regarding fields of fire), and either toughening it so it to dram toughness to make it slightly less of a trap fighting option, or throwing in integrated fighters.
It is intended to be an alternate to the Dram with, as you state, more OP for logistics with less durability as a balance. The reason I included it was a core concept of the CFT fleet being able to provide vanilla replacements if if player wanted to use only CFT ships for roleplay. It is how I play and I figured there has to be at least one other person who does as well :)
Likewise, the Asteria looks promosing. 3 Medium turrets, integrated range unit. However 2 small PD are useless, and it needs some form of PD or it's going to need heavy cover... That said, if you swapped them for 2 small missiles, either turret or forward facing, it looks like it might be able to take a mule... Sometimes. Right now, it has enough OP to be a tempting trap for combat, or a nice useful logistical peice.
Well with it being a tanker, I never considered it for serious combat deployment. However you do make a case for the small mounts. With them being on the front it does make it seem they should be combat focused instead of coverage while it is fleeing. I'll give it some thought and adjust it.
Speaking of combat with logisticals, the Danube... It can eat a Mule reliably, or a Enforcer in player control. Not fast mind, but either it should be listed a combat logistical, or needs a nerf. I'd suggest raising the OP to 7 and dropping a fighter bay (Borer to leave it more offensive, mining aux to leave it more defensive.). That said, if you want to move it to a more combat role, perhaps swap the physical and energy turrets. [Personally for combat, either 2 pulse lasers and 2 vulcans or a Assault and Duall Machine Gun and 2 pd lasers, then a useful  mod like hardened shields. Tac Lasers can be used instead for far support.]
Well I have some notes on that ship in the above posting but I will add that it is intended to be a combat deployable logistics ship. I will look at making it more defensive since it would be way too OP to give it more combat strength.
I haven't bothered testing the Vergulde in combat. It looks like it should do it's job on the strategy layer, but I can see it has too few mounts and bad combat stats. It's got enough OP it could work with converted hangers, but honestly it's probably just worth dropping the OP.
I did not intend it for combat. The small mounts are there for some PD coverage if it has to flee or to give it a little more mining power if you put weapons with mining stats on it.
Barque: Feels awkward to use, but does it's job as a destroyer ok. Homestly, given it's op points, I'd upgrade it's DP and make either it;s missile or it's front kinetics to medium, otherwise it just does it's job a little too slowly to feel good to use. I'd rather an enforcer honestly. Also, I find it does best with vanilla weapons, not Carter's ones.
I designed that ship for the aesthetic look I guess more than the combat efficiency, I tend to fall in that trap when I design ships. I'll give it a balance pass since it is intended for combat deployment and if it is not doing it's job, well that is a fail.
Jackdaw: The Frigate version to the Barque... It feels like everything the Barque does wrong, the Jackdaw does right. Arguablly the missile slot could be dropped to small and flux stats considered improving, but I'm not going to actually suggest touching it yet.
Hurray I did something right! :)
Carrack: Unlike it's fuel counterparts, this isn't a trap in combat! It's PD could use some beefing up perhaps (Not reliably against a mule's double salamander salvo), and it handles like a pregnant sow, but it can take a atlas or mule, and with great care could take a enforcer in theory (Fluxed one out a few times.). That said while it can kinda fight, it's not tough enough to actually fight, but the missile slots are great for Pilums. I'd consider marking this a combat transport, but honestly if you're taking it into combat there's a decent chance of loosing it... Call it borderline.
If you wanted to push it firmly into transport, maybe drop one of the medium front guns. If you want to push it towards a support, drop a gun and turn the section in the front into a 1-2 wing hanger, because it looks like it has a hanger on the front, but I'm assuming that's for the gantry.
It is intended to hold it's own in a defensive role so long range missiles like the Pilum are ideal. I could see the front graphic being turned into a hanger with some minor cosmetic changes. I'll give it some thought.
Brigantine: A wider, up dunned and down defended mule... I'd consider dropping the front energy mounts to 2 small or 1 medium, and probably raise it's op by 1 since it handidly spanks a mule, but needs careful hands if it's to take a enforcer... Also looking at the mule, probably chop 100 off it's transport capacity, since then it really is a fair trade off on the mule. Trading resilience for firepower. Or sacrificing the firepower for a mule with more OP for logistics but that's bigger and more fragile.
It is intended to be a beefed up mule. I'll increase the deployment cost to compensate.
Barkentine: Looks like a Gemini, plays like a combined Gemni/Condor that's combat hardened. It's a nice addition to the fleet. I treat it more like the meant for combat version of a Danube. It's ok. Possibly too much DP, but I'm not certain how much dropping 10ish would really change it. Honestly, don't touch it.
You can't touch this! (does hammer dance)
Clipper: Took a moment to realise it's a Venture, made more manueverable and dropping 2 missile slots, a fighter slot, and some storage for salvage rigs and much better combat performance...  Arguably worth having at least 1 in the fleet for the bigger salvage bonus, or as a 'fleets first cruiser', except you leave a Pirate Eagly just laying around in system... Perhaps swap the pirate eagle for this?
For you, I'll make that eagle/clipper change as a thank you :)
Raven: The Standard builds are useless. Ignore the medium slot, fill the front missiles with either long range support or anti shield and give it a Large weapon. Attach PD, guard with fighters. Also, the large in the standard build is a PD, but it's not the sort of PD that does redonculous amount of Frag so it can delete cruisers once they're stripped.  For short range weapons, this ship needs some careful watching, but makes it a interesting alternative to a sunder. For the longer range weapons, it's a nice sniper support platform. Only thing I'd change is default load outs.
I enjoy using this ship personally and it is intended to have some flexibility in it's loadout options as you noted. I think useless is a bit harsh but I get your meaning overall and I'll give the standard loadout some thought.
Lennox: It's an option, but not one I'd ever use. 2 small missiles can be useful, especially for inferno spam. 2 small forward ballistics are kinda eh, and then there's 2 energy to use for either pd or additionall attack... It's... Not something I use. It's very clearly a support destroyer, and I suppose those that like living on the tac layer can use it though.
Idk, I deploy it and use it as a personal ship in my wolfpack fleets. I find it's a fun zippy little guy.
Griffon: An... Interesting but actually usable layout. Fighters are hard set but to a group that looks like it might be usable in large fleet battles, and in testing it sort of plays like a light cruiser with a nice fighter compliment.... However for 33 dp? No. God no. It needs massively more OP for that to be viable, and possibly swapping the medium energy to a large. Having done some testing, it's probably good around 25 though. [Against the 20 point carriers it stomps them, against the eagle it's a grinding victory with some stumbling. Against a dominator it's a clear dominator win. That said, in a fleet fight it shouldn't be 1v1ing those, so putting it below that seems too low.]
I struggled with balancing it since it is a four bay drone carrier but it also has some teeth. I'll look it over and probably wind up lowering the DP instead of changing the weapon layout as I feel it is working as intended. I'll know more once I dig into it but either way it will be tweaked in the next patch.
Chester: Take a Griffon, trade Armor and speed for weapons, and 3 chooseable fighters instead of 4 preset, and drop it to 20 OP... This should probably be 25ISH as well. Add some armor on and you could just call it a heavy variant of the Griffon. As is, you can probably give it no hull mods, 3 ok fighters and medium weapons and make a good all rounder, give it 3 great fighter bays and under arm it to make it a Heron Equivilent, or over arm it and maybe grab 1 set of pd fighters/claws and have a fragile but ok cruiser, makes for a flexible all rounder.
As a standard variant it is designed to be a carrier / sniper with good PD coverage. I like your description of it being a flexible all rounder. 
Coventry: 7 Inferno Rockets + Missile Storage Expansion? Ok. Honestly, this with a missile commander and expanded racks, possibly even salvaged hull, just stand back, hold the fire button, and watch things go away. I'm not sure what the point of it's rear energies are, they don't seem to be useful for energy. Side weapons are probably best just as more PD... Forward kinetics use for either High Ex (Ships without full shields get confused by infernos) or kinetics (To bash down full circle shields.). OP feels in an OK place because the capitals (Except conquest.) can smash it before inferno spam smashes them... I'd probably consider this an inferno 'carrier' more than a cruiser.
It is intended for an officer that has missile specification and be a beast for sure. The side and rear mounted small weapons are intended as defense against either missiles that target engines or swarming drones/fighters. I put wave burst PD lasers in the rear mounts and find they do their job fairly well.
Kerberos: What if midline Dominator, but instead of missiles/large, all mediums? I don't have the weapons to build this in my perfered combat form to test if it's as bad as it sounds (Think 6 Gravitons and 4 Maulers), but slap chainguns and phase lances with overrides and it does work. I'll file this as interesting and does what it should do so far... Could possibly loose some speed since it starts at 85 and that's quick. Doesn't need to drop to 30 like the dominator.... Honestly, while 85 feels quick I'm not sure what it should be... maybe 70's?
I'll drop the speed down to 75 since it is intended to be a slugger.
Triton: What the Legion wishes it was... In fact, I'm pretty sure you took a legion, fiddled with the stats slightly, gave it recall device instead, and set all the slots to medium at most... Usable like a upsized Chester but better for bombing and worse for dedicated fighting.
I sort of had a Legion analog in mind but honestly I was just having so much fun designing this ship I had to pair it down from it's initial design. It is probably still too big but I like my chunky boy.
Freebooter: A... Utility Dreadnaught? I mean, it can facetank an Onslaught for you, and you're incentivised to pilot it by an operations center. It's got a salvage gantry which is great for getting the maximum bonus... But it has 2 large kinetic mounts, it's fighters are forced into non-kinetic harassers, and it has 2 forward mediums that are just sort of there. And 2 small missiles. Maybe for the PD missiles?
Two words - Super Ship. Utility Dreadnaught, I like that :)
Scow: Unlike most Carter's ships, doesn't have flux management problems. Feels like it'll be at an ok point once Hellfires/Infernos are adjusted. That said, personally I'd swap the med missiles for 2 smalls or a medium laser for better weapon balance.
I feel the current layout lets it stand apart for other ships of it's kind w/out it being too OP. As a combat freighter I felt the medium missiles gave it better use as a sniper over others of it's kind. Changing them to small would water it down to why bother in my opinion. Idk, I'll give it look.
Odam: A pretty good fleet anchor. Unusually slow for everything else, but it functions like a small appogee should. All small slots does hold it back in the damage department, but that's not what it's supposed to be.... Possibly could use speeding up to keep up with everyone else though.
Yep that is it's intended role, I'll look at the speed vs others of it's size and adjust if needed.
[close]

weapon/fighter notes
Fog of War and Culverin: Vulcan alternate, however unless a mod has changed mine vulcan cost 1 more or less depending which one I'm looking at OP and have much less flux output. Skip hard.
I designed them to be alternatives to vanilla with better coverage but higher flux.
Piaxhan: Looks like a flak canon in a small slot, for 7. I should try it, but I'm not going to bother at that op... That said looking at the stats I might try it in medium slots later despite how derpi it'd look.
I added several PD weapons as niche roles to be used as the player felt needed. I probably went overboard with the variety, but that is sort of on brand for me :)
Demi-Culverins: Very short range, not much better than dart guns in kinetic damage. I'm sure there's a reason for them, but with their high op i'm not sure what it is. (That said, I don't have one in front of me so I'm going off memory.)
see above. Essentially I sort of went overboard with weapons in general, idk I left them all in and let the player decided to use them or not.
Dart Guns: Due to raw damage a good contender for Dual autocanons... I'm not sure why they have emp damage, since it's not enough to do anything from what I can tell. Also, as soon as you reach armor they become useless due to how low damage they do. Probably part of the point, I consider them a worthy sidegrade.
The EMP is a flavor text sort of thing in the description, it does some disabling on frigates but larger ships it is sort of useless. Enough to have some small effect and lore applications but not enough to used as a dedicated disabler.
Falconet: It costs more than a assault gun to do more per hit damage and almost 2/3rd real damage at much less range. Theoretically better dps than a light mortar, but a light mortar runs at 2dp, longer range, and higher damage. Hard pass.
Hmm ok I'll give it a balance pass for the update
Inferno missiles: Odd description, should mention that they deliberately overfly and split into multiple missiles dealing 50 damage. Says they do 400dps, I'm not sure what to make of the title card without going into the code and I'm not a codemonkey. In damage effect, they do very little, splash damage around the hull of large targets, mostly miss small targets. Good in mass fights, a distraction vs frigates. That said, great ammo capacity, especially with trading cargo for +50% (Speaking of which, that hull mod is missing a % sign.). That said, possibly need a nerf because unless fighting someone with 360 shields they confuse the AI's shield prioritisation. Also the range on the card/rangefinder is far shorter than reality. Effective range is about 150% what's listed. Honestly, possibly under OP now. That said, why does it have a emp listing? It doesn't do emp damage. Also card should mention the second stage and how it deliberately overflies before turning into a missile targeting the rear/sides.
Edit: Much like the AI doesn't know how to use shields, the AI somehow doesn't know that it should be firing these constantly as if it werean autocanon due to the sheer amount of ammo it has and how they fly.
Well I am no codemonkey either :) The intention of the weapon and why it does what is does would be a bit long and since I will be giving it balance pass, it would be tldr for no effect at this point. I'll add comments when I release the patch.
Volley Rocket: Post nerf... Too slow IMO. As fast as it was was far too op. Honestly, probably a balanced sidegrade to annihilator rocket pods. That said, Volley's have more ammo, so maybe unballanced.
I'll take a look at the speed and give it a balance pass overall.
Point Defence Missiles: A direct fire version of Inferno Rockets, usable against fighters... Honestly, too useful as anti-ship weapons and ships do use them in my experience. Does an annoying sound count as a balance feature? Honestly I'd drop ammo, increase OP to 8, and reduce volume.
I was running out of sound files to give all the missiles distinct sounds but I am sure I can tag it with a less annoying one :)
Hellfire Launchers: 1 bursts into even more infernos... Due to how their effective damage is so low and they get far less damage, actually a nerf, even if they hit the rear more consistently, though they still confuse shield AI. On one hand I think it needs a buff compared to infernos. On the other hand, I think Infernos and this need to be nerfed to act like sallamanders/mirvs for AI reasons. If you do so, you would need to add more EMP or direct damage however.
Good point, I'll have some adjustments in the next update.
Sledge: As far as I can tell, there's no large missiles on Carter's ships... So why does this exist? I could be wrong though.
I felt large missiles have a limited use and selection. There are far more torpedoes in that role and I wanted a missile option I felt was lacking. The Galleon has two large missile mounts btw.
Wavemotion Pulse Lasers: Sidegrade to pulse lasers. EMP damage is too low to be worth mentioning, overall an eh.
But it's a prettier pew pew, does that count as balance?
Wave Burst PD Lasers: A nice alternate to pulse lasers. I need to use them more. Also range is enough to be used as threatening weapons especially in medium. That said, given most medium energy slots are attack orientated, the medium pd kinda has to be attack useful.
I added them specifically because I felt there was a lack of medium laser PD weapons out there. I like to give options and let the player decide to use them or not.
Shredder: I don't like close attack, and this faction doesn't really seem built for it. That said, here's a kinetic assault chain gun, slightly more range, slightly less damage. It's not for my playstile but not calling for a nerf/buff. I think it's fine for what it is.
Yep, it is a brawler style weapon. As midline ships I agree that is not CFT's forte but I felt it was a needed weapon for those that want to play that way.
Spread Shot Chaingun: A less damaging chaingun, but uses far less flux. Also spread which can be nice for catching frigates, but I don't like chainguns... A side grade, but I'm not sure it's a worthy one.
Pretty much it's intent. Again, an option for the player, nothing more nothing less.
Basilisk: What if your chaingun had 800 range? Not quite a perfect comparison, but close. Ok for killing frigates/destroyers, otherwise too low damage compared to it's alternates. This may sound negative, but honestly don't change it, it's a good sidegrade.
Keep it as-is, check!
Wrecker: Like the Basalisk, an alternate to the 7-800 range high ex. However, hitting at 500ex every 2.5 seconds... Honestly, probably hits too hard, it effectively 1 shots frigate and sometimes destroyer armor, making them easy kills (If it hits, and it's not that rare). Possibly raise the OP? (I think it's 12, probably should go to a mauler's 13 or maybe 14... very maybe.)
I'll give it a look over. I am sure you have a good point but at this time I can't give specifics until I do.
Auto Canon: Gauss Cannon on Steroids by High-Ex.... The ammo is enough that it's not worth mentioning. It's something outside the game to such an extent balance is a nebulous concept for it. That said, I tend to prefer Gauss Cannons so it's probably in a ok place.
There is actually a discussion regarding this weapon stats and name (apparently auto canon is misleading) on discord that I have copied as balance notes.
Bombard: I... Nothing compares in base, but I see no reason to use it. Other modded PD does it better, either as a dual pd/huge frag output (but yours is much better on flux), or as a dual pd/combat weapon with non-frag with extreme range and spread.
I feel I am being redundant but yea it is a side grade option to other weapons of the same type.
Apollo LPC: Frag/Emp harraser. Honestly, I thought it'd be trash but it's ok. Maybe worth an extra ship per flight, but that might be too much, I probably need to play with it more.
It is sort of a nod to one of my favorite SF book series that uses missile pods in this manner. Idk, sort of a personal nerd addition for me :)
Brig LPC: Feels like too few for what it does, but I need to play more with carriers.
I feel they are balanced for what they are but again I am apparently bad at balancing so if you have some opinions when you test them further, Id be happy to hear them.
Skiff LPC: I need to play with it more, but from looks this is what a Warthog should be, I look forward to mixing these with Broadswords.
see above
Mizzon: Arguably worse than a Mining drone swarm. Costs 1 op, has shields and a small pd laser... Probably ok for converted hangers for PD, but unless you're hard pressed I'd probably never use it. (Possibly ok with the mod that allows you to add fighters that don't replenish. Honestly needs 1-2 more per wing.)
I replied about these in the above post, due for a balance change for sure.
Cutter: These are great! Amazing PD and fighters! Also drones to save on crew, and in good number. Probably at a ok balance compared to Broadswords/Skiffs as a energy alternate, but could possibly use more op or remove the Fog.
I love my Cutters, I'm glad you find them useful.
[close]

Ok, so that's 3 mill and like... 4 hours of testing/writing. Going to go back in game time and figure out a exploration fleet in the future.
Seeing as long it has taken me to reply I believe it. Much appreciated, thank you for all your hard work!
Edit:
Because my brain won't let me sleep, a general faction review:
Carter's Freetraders are a solid midline faction. Their ships tend to be fast, relatively lightly armored with ok shields, and somewhat strained on flux venting. As a fleet it has great logistical or modification support with most ships having a generous op budget and plenty of salvage gantries and shielded holds for smuggling, salvaging and mining. (Could easily be vulture scavengers in Nex.).
The logistical Boons however come at a combat cost. Unless combat specced the relatively poor venting and undersized mounts on ships means you can easily be out ranged and out gunned, forcing you to use your speed or non-faction ships to survive. Additionally most factions weapons are best considered vanilla alternates, and you'll want many vanilla weapons with a sprinkling of Carter ones unless you're focusing on short range and safety overrides to blow through the opposition, with help from damper fields and speed boosts. This is not to say there aren't good combat ships, because there are. Especially in the carrier department, with it possible for you to field a unending swarm of drones in addition to a fast midtech strike force.
I'll change the mod description a bit and incorporate this. Nice summation, thank you.

OK I need a second coffee break before tackling a reply to the next post lol, stay tuned!
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