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[AcaMetis]

My $0.02 RE: smuggling: If me buying X organics from Jangala (for example) spawns a pirate fleet because they want to rob me I want to know why that merchant fleet carrying heavy armaments, marines and ship hulls openly boardcasting it's cargo, departure time, destination and ETA does not trigger the same.

[intrinsic_parity]

My $0.02 RE: smuggling: If me buying X organics from Jangala (for example) spawns a pirate fleet because they want to rob me I want to know why that merchant fleet carrying heavy armaments, marines and ship hulls openly boardcasting it's cargo, departure time, destination and ETA does not trigger the same.

Those fleet should have a 300k+ bounty fleet worth of defending ships IMO, which would also explain why pirates aren't targeting them.

[Salter]

My $0.02 RE: smuggling: If me buying X organics from Jangala (for example) spawns a pirate fleet because they want to rob me I want to know why that merchant fleet carrying heavy armaments, marines and ship hulls openly boardcasting it's cargo, departure time, destination and ETA does not trigger the same.

Those fleet should have a 300k+ bounty fleet worth of defending ships IMO, which would also explain why pirates aren't targeting them.

If the pirate fleet is alone, sure, but in systems being raided by pirates, they are usually never alone. Multiple fleets will jump on a heavy weapons convoy easily.

Something ive noticed particularly about raiders is that sometimes in large systems they will congregate around the distant jump points on the periphery of the system, which is a nasty surprise if you jump in as a player but makes one wonder why 100+ ships arent B-lining towards the inner system instead.

[landryraccoon]

Just chiming in with my two cents.

First, I think it's a good thing if the game has a grindy/slow/consistent way to earn money at low risk. To put it diplomatically, as others have pointed out, some players just aren't very good at combat. There should be a progression "slow boat" that lets less skilled (or less combat inclined) players "over-level" by earning cash and levels until they can win some fights with AI fleets.

This leads into my second point, which is that progression is really random in this game. This especially comes into play with exploration. As a general rule, I would expect that the further I fly from the core worlds, the riskier the exploration mission should be, and the better the rewards should be. The cash payout is a minor point, because really when I explore I'm hoping to find vast ruins or an abandoned station. The colony items and blueprints found will greatly outweigh any cash payout when that happens. In reality, exploration missions feel a lot like lottery tickets. I don't know if the randomness is bad exactly, but it could be a bit "smoother".

If it were more explicit that distant caches are very well rewarded, but also well guarded, that would give players an intuitive notion that distant exploration missions are riskier, but nearby ones are more relaxed. This also could let the player control their own risk reward: Take survey missions a few days from the core worlds? Chill, easy, low risk money as long as you bring a lean fleet. Distant mining station? Bring your fleet, there could be guards but there will be tons of loot. In practice, maybe I get lucky with an early exploration and find a capital ship / good cruiser, and then I'm doing high level bounties as early as I possibly can to bootstrap a colony. That can be a huge leg up in the early game. OTOH, sometimes I'm just finding way more ore than I can carry and probes full of gamma cores that lead to a slow grind before I can build the fleet I want.

One sort of "easy" way to do this would be to concentrate Red High Warning beacons at the edges and corners of the map, Medium beacons an intermediate distance away, and low warning beacons close to the core worlds. That intuitively makes sense, because even the existence of "Redacted" fleets is supposed to be unknown to the average core world resident, and that fits the lore better if Remnants make their homes far from the core worlds.

But really I would love if there were more unexpected enemies one could find when stumbling across a research station at a distant black hole. Aliens? Some experimental Domain AI defense system? Or an enclave of devolved scientists from centuries ago still maintaining advanced domain weapons? The possibilities are endless.


 

[FooF]

I’ll only add where I feel I have experience. I go after bounties from the start and I think I like the dissolution of intel bounties and tying them completely to contacts. I don’t develop contacts all that often because I don’t have to. System bounties are fine but the independent bounties that just pop up basically replace contact bounties for free. The only thing I’d miss is the ability to hit like 3 of them in succession because they all spawned in or around the same system.

At least with contacts you have some control over the bounty difficulty. The intel bounties just scale up (sometimes too quickly). The only thing I don’t like is running back to the core worlds to get new bounties every time. Maybe you could “call” the contact (if next to a comm relay) and get more while you’re out and about?

As far as income, I make plenty of money from bounties even with the risk. I don’t lose ships often and generally know what I can handle. If it goes really poorly I reload but I don’t mind losing ships once in awhile.

[Megas]

I’ll only add where I feel I have experience. I go after bounties from the start and I think I like the dissolution of intel bounties and tying them completely to contacts. I don’t develop contacts all that often because I don’t have to. System bounties are fine but the independent bounties that just pop up basically replace contact bounties for free. The only thing I’d miss is the ability to hit like 3 of them in succession because they all spawned in or around the same system.

At least with contacts you have some control over the bounty difficulty. The intel bounties just scale up (sometimes too quickly). The only thing I don’t like is running back to the core worlds to get new bounties every time. Maybe you could “call” the contact (if next to a comm relay) and get more while you’re out and about?

Depending how well the game went, I tend to not bother with contacts because I need to visit a core world that is out of the way, then sometimes go to some far off fringe world to beat up some fleet.

For me, the main reasons to develop contact is:
* Buying more pristine ships at discount prices (before I have all blueprints and industry online) from the guy I met at the bar, who is base commander.
* Bounties with automated ships.
* The special Omega bounty for more Omega weapons.

I have tried to develop contacts at my colonies so I do not need to travel to core worlds for contact bounties, but the only contacts I can get from the bar in my colonies are pirate ones, which would be fine for pirate rep if I want it, but not if I want simple military contact to grind for the Omega bounty.

[Serenitis]

Depending how well the game went, I tend to not bother with contacts because I need to visit a core world that is out of the way, then sometimes go to some far off fringe world to beat up some fleet.

This is the major failing of contacts in general - you need to be in a specific place to use them, and a sigficantly non-zero amount of the game is pushing you to not be in one specific place.
Having contacts be accessible from relays would absolutely be a huge improvement.

But I don't think it would work all that well as the only means of getting bounties as you're adding extra steps to find new targets.
You'd go from "find a relay, fly within 1ly of it" to "find a relay, fly to system, enter system, fly to relay, interact with relay, interact with contact" and I'm not sure that's a good trade off for game flow.
I'd rather just get auto-updates and deal with the RNG tbh.

Having both bounty systems running side-by-side would be nice for player agency though...

[intrinsic_parity]

You could try to do something like adding some UI in the intel screen for interacting with contacts that is only usable when in range of a comm relay. I agree that having to physically go to a comm relay is annoying.

I do really think that so many pacing problems people have (and complain about every single patch) can be solved with contacts though.

Also, you could try to allow for accepting multiple simultaneous bounties from a contact by creating a queue of bounties that are added to at regular intervals. You can also currently get multiple contacts to get multiple bounties at the same time. The point being that a lot of the issues people raise with contact bounties are not really inherent to contacts, but just how the system is currently implemented.

I also think that maybe people are overestimating how important getting missions 'on the fly' is. In my experience, before you get a colony, you're always heading back to the core to resupply and sell stuff anyway, so it's really not a big deal to just resupply at the world where your contact is. And popping into a few different systems is also pretty normal if you are looking for specific ships or trying to sell stuff at better prices. Basically, I think the behavior of going to a few different core worlds and then heading back out to do missions/explorations is already a pretty normal gameplay loop, so slightly modifying that to go your contact worlds is really not a huge shift in gameplay, at least for me.

Once I have a colony though, that definitely changes things. Maybe having a structure you can build at your colony to interact with contacts could be another option.

[Megas]

I also think that maybe people are overestimating how important getting missions 'on the fly' is. In my experience, before you get a colony, you're always heading back to the core to resupply and sell stuff anyway, so it's really not a big deal to just resupply at the world where your contact is. And popping into a few different systems is also pretty normal if you are looking for specific ships or trying to sell stuff at better prices. Basically, I think the behavior of going to a few different core worlds and then heading back out to do missions/explorations is already a pretty normal gameplay loop, so slightly modifying that to go your contact worlds is really not a huge shift in gameplay, at least for me.

In one or two games, before I establish a colony, I went to Mayasura often (system with abandoned station and no patrols) and if I get a contact at the Port Tse Franchise Station, I use him.  After I get a colony, the visits mostly stop because I want to use my colony as a home base, not a core world.  I build my first colony relatively early in the game.  I like having my own home base.

In my current game, I have the high level contacts from the academy quest line, but have not bothered developing them.  Going to the core worlds specifically for contact jobs is inconvenient, and the main reasons I want to do them are to recover derelict ships without disturbing Domain probes and the Omega bounty.

My own colonies, I can do military bounties for people from my own faction at the bar, but I do not get a contact, and I need to roll the dice to see if they appear at my bar again.  I cannot just go to the board and call up the commissioner and tell him "Hand me bounties with automated ships now!"

[intrinsic_parity]

I agree that contacts are much more inconvenient once you start a colony, and my experience is similar, although I tend to start colonies pretty late, so I have longer periods where I use contacts. Doing something about that specifically is probably a high priority if you want to make contacts more important.

[Delta_of_Isaire]

Re OP: Excellent analysis. I can get behind it 100%.


Trade contacts in particular require massive improvements. I've tried them a few times, but always gave up on them quickly for one of the following reasons:
> Their trade missions do not appear to scale properly with your cargo space, which means they are often too small to be worthwhile. To the point that random bar delivery missions ("concerned man/woman") are massively better than anything I've seen from trade contacts.
> Trade contacts often have no available missions, to the point of being unreliable and useless.
> Their offers to buy some commodity at a "bargain price" are not that good. Aside from being a ridiculously low quantity, the supposedly good price is often no better than the (black market) buy price at planets with an excess of that commodity.


Regarding public bounties: one function of these is that they spawn random dangerous enemies that add a level of risk to (early/midgame) exploration. In fact high-level public bounties are the most dangerous random encounters in the game (besides remnant ordos), much stronger than pirates or scavengers. So if these bounties are removed (and I can see the merit of the idea) then the actual fleets themselves should maybe still be spawned.

[Oni]

I agree that contacts are much more inconvenient once you start a colony, and my experience is similar, although I tend to start colonies pretty late, so I have longer periods where I use contacts. Doing something about that specifically is probably a high priority if you want to make contacts more important.

I think the 'Stellar Networks' mod allows you to call your contacts remotely, which makes it more convenient than having to go to their planets in person.

I just wish the bounties contacts gave you were worth it. They always send me to the edge of the sector for a piddly amount that doesn't even cover my fuel/supply costs to get there... maybe if the reward had a multiplier determined by LY distance? For example the reward got a +0.01 for every LY away from the contact (example: contact gives a 50000 bounty 25 LY away, final reward amount is '50000 x 1.25 = 62500')... the multiplier could be adjusted for whatever made it worthwhile (such as +0.02 or +0.03 per LY instead).
That way contacts give you far away bounties with a bonus (if you're sending me into the far edge of the sector, you can at least pay for my gas) while the random public bounties tend to be closer to home (thus no distance bonus).

[Megas]

Regarding public bounties: one function of these is that they spawn random dangerous enemies that add a level of risk to (early/midgame) exploration. In fact high-level public bounties are the most dangerous random encounters in the game (besides remnant ordos), much stronger than pirates or scavengers. So if these bounties are removed (and I can see the merit of the idea) then the actual fleets themselves should maybe still be spawned.

Come to think of it, my fleet might have been jumped on by a named bounty once or twice.

Not just named bounty fleets but also their bases.  There were few times I tried to explore a system only to find a hidden base, and I had to run.

Too bad the rewards for taking out a base are miserably worse than a named bounty fleet.  A two-section base is probably on par with a 150k bounty (which is already too low given the cost to replace a cruiser), but you get around 80k or less for the job - no thanks!  The base is better left alive to do black market trades and/or smash-and-grab raids for free stuff and leveling up marines.

[Thaago]

If its a pirate base that is close to the core/the direction I often am travelling, I will keep it around as a raiding/trading port. If its out of the way but has a bounty, a combined raid+bounty is usually enough to get me interested. The credits alone aren't enough, but a good raid on a station can give a lot of supplies/fuel, enough to make up the difference usually.

One thing thats nice is that the contact system traders who are angry at pirates and gives a system bounty on their system includes the station, so going to their system to kill all the fleets, then raid and mop up the station can be very profitable.

[haibane]

I think the problem with trade in that trade routes are static. Once you figure out that Sindria sells cheap fuel it will always sells cheap fuel. It is then easy to match two places together and repeat until your greed is satisfied. Solution to make open market trade interesting is to make prices dynamic.

Actually, it is easier to show on an example of another game. If you ever played Space Rangers 2 it is easy to draw parallels with Starsector: both a set in a "galaxy"/collections of stars, there are planets, space fights and you also drive a ship. This is where most similarities end, but SR2 actually got open trade way better than SS.

In SR2 planets got different population size, race (=faction), government and specialization. This controls focus of the planet (its primary imports/exports + volumes) and legality. But the thing is you are not the only actor in the galaxy. Even if planet imports luxury goods, others arrive to sell too, so over time it tones down both requested amount and price. As a result trading with average prices is still possible, but has miniscule margins approaching the cost of transportation - where AI reasonably stops doing it.

The real trade is driven by events. There is always something happening in the galaxy. Planets change focus, government is overthrown, there appears to be production surplus etc. This creates momentary supply/demand which drives prices. But those opportunities are timed. Other traders or opportunists will try to take advantage of those too. Which means every time you discover a good selling price, chances are there is already someone speeding there to get the profit. Also finding such a place is only a start. You need to buy the goods too, preferably a reasonable amount at a good price. This means taking a detour, wasting more time, and a higher chance to loose the opportunity.
Add to this that expanding your cargo hold is much more difficult and you often need to consider refuels on the way, which wastes even more time.

Sweet deal doesn't just drop on your lap because you walked into a bar. You have to figure logistic for yourself. You are never certain if you will be in time to take advantage so you have to judge how much risk you are willing to take. And every case is unique. Is it worth chasing incredibly sweet deal across the galaxy? Is it worth spending 3 more travel days for better margin or not? Those are absolutely real questions. Sometimes 3 days is what separates you from piles of cash and no profit at all. Just imagine how your heart sinks down as you watch 5 traders reach the planet right in front of you and find that prices dropped so low that you would be selling into minus. And you still take that, because you figured out another deal, need money for it and there is no time to seek a better buyer for the cargo you have.

This gameplay is both fun and addictive to certain kinds of people.

But doesn't just throw you to the wolfs. It has a mechanism introduce you to trading and to assist you.

First, there are galaxy news. It gives you a constant stream of updates on most notable happenings in the galaxy. Military victories, new discoveries, deaths of notorious pirates and venerated heros, but also big events on individual planets which - as you eventually figure out - affect prices.

Sometime it can cause scrappy last second decisions to eek at least some profit.
You can travel through a system and get a notification that there is an epidemic on nearby planet. Opportunity. So you rush off to closest place which sells medicine and buy any amount for whatever price. Because this is exactly what AI is doing. In a matter of days medicine market will be stripped bare in the vicinity of the system - everyone close who can trade will try to get in. If you want to make any money you have to take what you get. And if you travel farther away to get better price/amount, traders which start from that place are guaranteed to beat you.

Second, there is galaxy google search. While in a dock for a small fee it allows you to get information about anything in the galaxy. Equipment, hulls, individuals - market prices too. You kinda need to discover it yourself, but as soon as you do you will be spamming it on every chance. Opportunities from news are very profitable, but also very short lived and therefore risky. News attract attention, everyone knows about it and it is always a race.
Search allows you to find smaller fluctuations which don't make it to the news, but nonetheless profitable. They tend to stay for longer, but obviously if you can find it someone else can too. Time is still limited.

What about other risks like pirates? It is mostly an ambient threat. Choose routes wisely, read the news, sometime google notorious figureheads and keep some ransom money on you just in case. There is a very real tradeoff between cargo capacity and combat aptitude in SR2, but pirates are not around every corner to ambush you. Just another risk to weigh.

By the way, there are unusual ways to interact with pirates in the game. Here's a very real strat. During a pirate raid, supply chains are disrupted resulting in incredibly inflated prices for essential goods like food. You can buy a sufficiently big amount, travel to the system, sneak by pirates fighting local forces, run away from everyone else, pay off pirates which managed to chase you down and still sell for a sweet-sweet profit margin. Then spend time collecting food from debris of less lucky traders and sell it too. Don't look at me, money doesn't smell and I risk my life doing this.
Big risk, big reward. Do you ever consider doing similar thing in Starsector?

I wish devs just steal this setup and build on top of it. It won't be for everyone, but it isn't as if you are supposed to enjoy everything game throws at you. And it also will look a lot more organic than double -30% tax.