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Author Topic: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1  (Read 36028 times)

Dri

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2022, 06:50:28 PM »

Can you install Makeshift Shield Generator on an Invictus and then install a Shield Shunt to get 15% armor bonus? That is +1,500 armor for Invictus, plus another 1000 from Armored Weapon Mounts. 12,500 armor total, not sure if it comes out to be OP efficient though.
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Candesce

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2022, 06:53:53 PM »

But i just can't understand, lore wise, how could outdated ship outrange the pinnacle of ship designs (Paragon).
The Paragon is an energy weapon boat, and that's always meant it's range isn't going to be incredible. The ATC only brings energy weapons up enough to compete with ballistics, not surpass them. Try doing the math on Atlas IIs armed with Gauss in comparison, say.

That Fortress Shield is an outright hard counter to Lidar Array is much more relevant to asking which of them is more advanced than the other, I'd say.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2022, 07:07:22 PM »

RE Invictus vs. Paragon:

The only person with his hands on Invictus has said Paragon eats it for breakfast.

If LIDAR is so godly (nevermind that it gets beat by the ATC ship), why does no other ship use it? Because it takes a dreadnought-sized hull to fit it - just look how far apart the laser turrets are!

That giant space requirement is what makes Invictus, and thus LIDAR, obsolete. It makes Invictus guzzle fuel, take literal tons of crew, and prevents it from mounting a shield generator. Even Atlas Mk.2 has a shield.
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DaShiv

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2022, 08:08:09 PM »

I know that Lidar Array is limited ability, and has a cooldown, but it also provides other good bonuses that makes the cooldown negligible, like triple the fire rate, among other things.

Now, Invictus is supposed to be outdated, compared to the other low-tech, midline and especially high-tech ships, where Paragon is the pinnacle of the Domain's battleship designs. But i just can't understand, lore wise, how could outdated ship outrange the pinnacle of ship designs (Paragon).

Because range isn't the sole determinant of the quality of ship design - if that were the case, then most low tech ships at equivalent size classes would be simply "better" than most high tech ships, full stop. It's an extremely facile avenue for analysis.

I'm not surprised that in real testing the Paragon eats the Invictus alive, because Lidar Array takes up the active system slot, while the Paragon is equipped with both ATC and Fortress Shield. The Paragon could simply activate Fortress Shield to absorb the Lidar Array output while it's active, then once Lidar has been depleted the Paragon will easily pummel the Invictus from way beyond the Invictus's pitiful +25% passive range. In fact, beam Paragons still outrange the Invictus even with Lidar active for any weapon other than Gauss, and I highly doubt the Invictus has the flux to sustain 4x Gauss with 3x Lidar acceleration for any decent length of time (which, again, would just be easily absorbed by Fortress Shield anyway). It's quite likely that the Invictus will have trouble managing 4x Gauss even before Lidar - the posted build has less than 50% of the dissipation required for 4x Gauss alone, before even considering the other large mounts.

Personally I'm waiting to see what the flux and system uptime situation (max charges, charge replenishment, duration/cooldown, etc.) turns out to be for Invictus before passing judgement, since that's going to have a huge impact on what kind of damage output the Invictus is actually capable of sustaining across the entire battle. The Invictus obviously has considerable burst potential, but might require tons of support to keep it covered if it needs to constantly vent. Right now the Invictus reminds me of an overgrown Atlas Mk.II: amazing on paper, but tactically problematic during actual deployment. It's hard to measure how DP-efficient the Invictus would be without actually seeing how much sustained DPS it's capable of and how much fleet support it requires.
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HiddenPorpoise

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2022, 08:45:41 PM »

Now, Invictus is supposed to be outdated, compared to the other low-tech, midline and especially high-tech ships, where Paragon is the pinnacle of the Domain's battleship designs. But i just can't understand, lore wise, how could outdated ship outrange the pinnacle of ship designs (Paragon).
The Invictus is a means of getting big guns on target and is built around supporting those big guns. Everything else about it is crude and gets around that crudeness by being big. The Paragon doesn't have its theoretical maximum reach but doesn't need it as badly for endurance and will waste fewer shots at that distance.
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2022, 08:59:20 PM »

Can you install Makeshift Shield Generator on an Invictus and then install a Shield Shunt to get 15% armor bonus? That is +1,500 armor for Invictus, plus another 1000 from Armored Weapon Mounts. 12,500 armor total, not sure if it comes out to be OP efficient though.

You can't, no - ships with right-click systems can't install MSG.
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Orange Juice Goose

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2022, 09:27:38 PM »

Mmmmm space bricks. Suitable for building shelters to keep the big bad space wolf out.
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Dri

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2022, 11:26:14 PM »

Is adding content the fun part of game development? All the framework is built and now you get to fill it with stuff? I'm not a developer but I'd imagine this stage of game development is really fun.
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Aeacus

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2022, 03:07:22 AM »

The Paragon is an energy weapon boat, and that's always meant it's range isn't going to be incredible. The ATC only brings energy weapons up enough to compete with ballistics, not surpass them. Try doing the math on Atlas IIs armed with Gauss in comparison, say.

That Fortress Shield is an outright hard counter to Lidar Array is much more relevant to asking which of them is more advanced than the other, I'd say.

Paragon, with it's ATC, is the current Range King in the game. No other ship can fire as far as Paragon can.

And for Atlas Mk.II comparison, sure.

Atlas Mk.II has Accelerated Ammo Feeder as it's ability, which does increase RoF, but does not increase weapon range. Best what Atlas Mk.II can have, is Integrated Targeting Unit, with +60% range. With this, and equipping 2x Gauss Cannons on it (since it's max what it can take in terms of Large Ballistics), it gains 1920 range for it's Gauss Cannons. 1920 range is still less than 2000 range for Tachyon Lance and High Intensity Laser, when the latter two are put on Paragon.

If LIDAR is so godly (nevermind that it gets beat by the ATC ship), why does no other ship use it? Because it takes a dreadnought-sized hull to fit it - just look how far apart the laser turrets are!

That giant space requirement is what makes Invictus, and thus LIDAR, obsolete. It makes Invictus guzzle fuel, take literal tons of crew, and prevents it from mounting a shield generator. Even Atlas Mk.2 has a shield.

Why no other ship uses Lidar Array? Perhaps because it isn't in the game as of yet? Who knows, maybe in the future, we may see more ships with Lidar Array.

Invictus'es fuel consumption and crew requirement doesn't matter when it is part of the AI controlled fleet, opposing your fleet. These two are only minor hindrances when Invictus is in player's fleet. And regarding it's lack of shields, it has armor to counter that, and plethora of it as well. 10.000 as a base, which can be greatly increased with hullmods. (E.g Armored Weapon Mounts, besides toughening up weapons, also add +10% armor, so extra 1000 armor, to total of 11.000 armor).
2nd best ship, in terms of armor rating of 1750 is Onslaught. After that, at 1700 armor rating, comes Guardian. And next, at 1500 armor rating, are several ships (Prometheus Mk.II, Legion, Paragon, Ziggurat, Radiant and Tesseract).

Also, it has the highest hull integrity as well, 40.000. That's at least twice of what is currently in-game. Next in line, with half of that, at 20.000 hull integrity, are: Onslaught, Radiant and Guardian. Step down from those, at 18.000 hull integrity is Paragon.
And when putting on Reinforced Bulkheads, that give +40% hull, that adds another 16.000, to the total of 56.000 hull integrity.

So, Invictus doesn't need shields at all, with this kind of armor amount and hull integrity. Also, lack of shields actually helps Invictus, since it can dissipate flux at all times. While all other ships with shields, need to drop their shields, to dissipate flux.

---

Lore wise, i'd paint Invictus green and put it into Derlict class, since it fits well between Rapart and Guardian. It's essentially Rampart's big brother. A flying box without shields, with loads of ballistic mounts. And it being outdated, just like all other Derlicts are, makes the fit even more snug.

Because range isn't the sole determinant of the quality of ship design - if that were the case, then most low tech ships at equivalent size classes would be simply "better" than most high tech ships, full stop. It's an extremely facile avenue for analysis.

I'm not surprised that in real testing the Paragon eats the Invictus alive, because Lidar Array takes up the active system slot, while the Paragon is equipped with both ATC and Fortress Shield. The Paragon could simply activate Fortress Shield to absorb the Lidar Array output while it's active, then once Lidar has been depleted the Paragon will easily pummel the Invictus from way beyond the Invictus's pitiful +25% passive range. In fact, beam Paragons still outrange the Invictus even with Lidar active for any weapon other than Gauss, and I highly doubt the Invictus has the flux to sustain 4x Gauss with 3x Lidar acceleration for any decent length of time (which, again, would just be easily absorbed by Fortress Shield anyway). It's quite likely that the Invictus will have trouble managing 4x Gauss even before Lidar - the posted build has less than 50% of the dissipation required for 4x Gauss alone, before even considering the other large mounts.

Personally I'm waiting to see what the flux and system uptime situation (max charges, charge replenishment, duration/cooldown, etc.) turns out to be for Invictus before passing judgement, since that's going to have a huge impact on what kind of damage output the Invictus is actually capable of sustaining across the entire battle. The Invictus obviously has considerable burst potential, but might require tons of support to keep it covered if it needs to constantly vent. Right now the Invictus reminds me of an overgrown Atlas Mk.II: amazing on paper, but tactically problematic during actual deployment. It's hard to measure how DP-efficient the Invictus would be without actually seeing how much sustained DPS it's capable of and how much fleet support it requires.

Low tech ships have higher armor/hull rating of the three classes, while high tech ships are fastest of the three, while being most fragile. And mid-line are between the two. What is valued with the ship, is dependent on personal play style. Some people like to be up close, tanking shots. Others prefer to kite at outskirts and out range opponents.

Almost all ships can have either DTC or ITU, to increase their weapon range. With this, there is little difference which ship to use. Except Paragon and it's unique ATC. Making Paragon ideal for those, who value weapon range the most.
Now, if i'd want firepower, i could use Onslaught or when i want even more energy firepower, i can use Radiant, since it can hold 5x Tachyon Lances, one more than Paragon. But i prefer to play on extreme ranges, making Paragon ideal for my play style.
Btw, it would be nice, if, in the future, players could change out the default Active Ability and choose another one, more fitting to their play style (e.g to me, Paragon's Fortress Shield is completely useless and i don't use it at all. I even rarely use shields, since i have range advantage. That is, until Invictus comes and out ranges my Paragon).

Invictus'es flux amount and dissipation, could be it's only saving grace, regarding the sustainability of Gauss Cannons. But we don't know that as of yet, since Invictus is still under construction and it's stats may change prior to launch.
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Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2022, 03:18:10 AM »

Ah, I see you're using the ol' bait tactic. Unfortunately for that to work there has to be some stronger, more believable arguments. Then again someone just might fall for "Paragon is now obsolete because of Invictus" and start to argue, but that's a waste of posts in this otherwise interesting blog post thread. Before anyone attacks me for being negative, the DEVELOPER himself proved this whole essay above wrong.
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2022, 03:22:34 AM »

I too love pretending soft flux shield-inefficient beams are comparable to 700 hit strength kinetics.

Not to mention capital ships always have officers, and both ballistic mastery and gunnery implants benefit gauss cannon more than even 1000 range beams.
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Aeacus

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2022, 04:37:51 AM »

Ah, I see you're using the ol' bait tactic. Unfortunately for that to work there has to be some stronger, more believable arguments. Then again someone just might fall for "Paragon is now obsolete because of Invictus" and start to argue, but that's a waste of posts in this otherwise interesting blog post thread. Before anyone attacks me for being negative, the DEVELOPER himself proved this whole essay above wrong.

I did not say that Paragon is obsolete after Invictus arrives. What i'm saying, that Invictus'es greater range does not make sense lore wise, since Invictus is supposed to be outdated, with inferior technological advancements. Perhaps even obsolete ones, compared to what is currently available in the Sector. Currently, Paragon is top-of-the-line, regarding technological advancements and is the only ship in game, that has the ATC, that provides +100% range to energy and ballistic weapons.

Lore wise, it doesn't make sense, that Luddic Church now gets a capital, that equals to the range bonus of ATC, while also providing additional bonuses, that ATC is not capable of, cooldown or not.

I too love pretending soft flux shield-inefficient beams are comparable to 700 hit strength kinetics.

Not to mention capital ships always have officers, and both ballistic mastery and gunnery implants benefit gauss cannon more than even 1000 range beams.

Soft flux energy weapons vs hard flux kinetic weapons, is yes, another point, that favors Invictus, while decreasing the value of Paragon. Now, Invictus doesn't have a shield, making soft flux energy weapons more effective against it (i hope).

Now, i tried to keep the comparison between Invictus'es Lidar Array vs Paragon's ATC comparison simple, without adding additional game mechanics to it. But since some folks here did bring additional aspects to the argument, namely Fortress Shield, Lidar Array cooldown and flux amount/venting rates of Invicuts, i feel that i should need to include other aspects as well, namely player skills.

Here, i bring forth 3 skills: Gunnery Implants, Energy Weapon Mastery and Ballistic Weapon Mastery.

Now, Gunnery Implants extend the energy and ballistic weapon range by +15% and since it applies both to Invictus and Paragon, this skill isn't needed in the argument. However, Energy Weapon Mastery and Ballistic Weapon Mastery are needed.

Energy Weapon Mastery does not increase the range of energy weapons. It only boosts damage up to 600 range, with diminishing returns up to 1000 range.
Ballistic Weapon Mastery, in the other hand, does increase ballistic weapons range and that by +10%.

With that, the range gap, between Invictus and Paragon increases even further.
From my earlier comparison, but now, with player skill:

Invictus
Ballistic Mastery with Lidar Array - Lidar Array range - Default range - Weapon
2520 - 2400 - 1200 - Gauss Cannon
1890 - 1800 - 900 - Mark IX Autocannon
1890 - 1800 - 900 - Hellbore Cannon
1890 - 1800 - 900 - Hephaestus Assault Gun
1890 - 1800 - 900 - Devastator Cannon
1890 - 1800 - 900 - Mjolnir Cannon
1470 - 1400 - 700 - Storm Needler

Paragon
ATC range - Default range - Weapon
2000 - 1000 - Tachyon Lance
2000 - 1000 - High Intensity Laser
1400 - 700 - Autopulse Laser
1400 - 700 - Plasma Cannon
1200 - 750 - Paladin PD System (only +60% range)

With Ballistic Mastery, Invictus will outrange Paragon by 520-1120 range.
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Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2022, 05:24:34 AM »

Vanguard while using Burn drive is faster than high tech frigates. By your logic that also doesn't make sense lore wise... Come on dude just drop it.
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DaShiv

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2022, 05:31:30 AM »

I did not say that Paragon is obsolete after Invictus arrives. What i'm saying, that Invictus'es greater range does not make sense lore wise, since Invictus is supposed to be outdated, with inferior technological advancements. Perhaps even obsolete ones, compared to what is currently available in the Sector. Currently, Paragon is top-of-the-line, regarding technological advancements and is the only ship in game, that has the ATC, that provides +100% range to energy and ballistic weapons.

Lore wise, it doesn't make sense, that Luddic Church now gets a capital, that equals to the range bonus of ATC, while also providing additional bonuses, that ATC is not capable of, cooldown or not.

Once again - there's no lore equivalence between range and "technological advancements". Gauss has the longest base range of any non-missile weapon, and it's a ballistic weapon that can't be mounted on any high tech ships. And low tech ships generally have better range than high tech ships even though by lore they're less technologically advanced.

You're overgeneralizing and drawing erroneous conclusions based on a fixation with the Paragon, which is not uncommon among newer players. The Paragon is a unique ship that combines long range with on-demand damage mitigation. Rather than representing the pinnacle of high tech doctrine, it offers something quite uncharacteristic to high tech fleets - to help plug a weakness of high tech doctrine, if you will. Likewise, the Retribution appears to be the fastest capital from any tech doctrine, but again it would be equally a mistake to say it means that high speed is representative of low tech doctrine; rather, like the Paragon it provides something different to low tech fleets that would otherwise be lacking.

If anything, Invictus appears to be simply doubling down on the most common traits of low tech ships: long range, reliance on armor tanking, heavy PD, and being terribly overgunned/underfluxed. In many ways, Invictus is the most "low tech" ship and thus aligns well with existing lore.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2022, 05:40:01 AM »

I wish carriers were listed more clearly on the fleet info - it's too hard to tell which fighter wing goes with which ship.
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