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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1  (Read 46892 times)

Dri

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2022, 09:19:26 PM »

Does Invictus really benefit from Auxiliary Thrusters or does it turn at a decent speed?

Good idea all around to give each faction some more personality both in and out of combat.
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2022, 09:25:30 PM »

Turning-wise it's the same as the Onslaught, but it's top speed/accel/decel is significantly better.

On the other hand, its engagement range is long enough that turning is less critical. It depends, I'd say.
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Dri

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2022, 09:33:50 PM »

Oh wow, its top speed is significantly better than Onslaught, was not expecting that! Well, Onslaught does have Burn Driver.

Also, what exactly does Distributed Fire Control do? I got from the blogpost that it is basically a super buffed Armored Weapon Mounts that prevents range boosting hullmods, but does it do anything else?

Lidar Array when not in active use still boosts weapon range by 25%?
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Aeacus

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2022, 10:29:17 PM »

I have one question: How come the Lidar Array is better than Advanced Targeting Core?  ???

Especially since from the blog:
Quote
but mainly I wanted the ship to feel outdated, and “its targeting systems are so good they’re better than the more modern stuff” doesn’t fit.

By the idea, Lidar Array should be worse, since it is obsolete, but it isn't. It is actually better than Advanced Targeting Core.

Some stats;

Advanced Targeting Core
Active
+100% energy/ballistic range
+60% point-defense range.

Lidar Array
Passive
+25% range

Active
+100% range
+200% rate of fire
+50% projectile speed
reduced recoil

With this, Lidar Array is much better than Paragon's Advanced Targeting Core, since ATC gives only range bonus and that's it.
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2022, 12:08:50 AM »

I don't think the preview for the Orion Device is working.

***

Very happy to see the LC get some love.  They've been the most orphaned faction for a long time and I mod their ship set even on largely vanilla runs just so their fleets are more interesting and to justify allying with them over another faction.  Otherwise they had access to the lowest number of ships of all factions by a large margin.  Also glad to see the Manticore and Vanguard get added to their roaster, which felt more LC to me than Hegemony to begin with.  I'm actually surprised there wasn't a new capital with the damper field given that system suits the LC's style.  (Side note, have you considered making the Mora into a damper field right click ship?)

The Persean League is getting lots of changes?  Interesting, I'd have put the Dictate down as who needed love next after the LC with changes focused on making them less of a copy of the PL that drops the carriers.  The way I add flavor to the SD in my games is to make them use phase ships, since otherwise it's only TT that does in serious numbers.

Before this blog, I'd have said of the major factions that Tri-Tach, Hegemony, and Persean League have the most distinctive identities.
  • TT: A mish mash of high tech ships warships, phase ships, and mid-line carriers (where's the small high tech carrier that should be in the high tech blueprint package?).  A jack of all trades, master of none, but always has some kind of surprise you won't find anywhere else.  Go here if you want crazy off the wall ships in your fleet.
  • Heg: Large elite ships with the best officers supported by a grab bag of smaller ships.  Uses a mix of low tech and midline, plus the especially powerful 14th battlegroup ships.  Unfortunately I don't think their markets offer much over other factions at the moment, other than those 14th battlegroup ships.
  • PL: Has access to the widest variety of ships and weapons, but focuses on midline specialized warships supported by more carriers than any other faction.  The most consistent faction, fielding some of the most well balanced fleets.  Between the consistency and breadth, the League has the best markets in the game for buying ships.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2022, 12:11:35 AM by Twilight Sentinel »
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Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2022, 12:25:28 AM »

@Aeacus
I mean you're comparing something that's active permanently and not part of a ship system, and Lidar Array which is on a cooldown. I get the concern but it seriously doesn't seem that strong for all the costs this behemoth brings.

Speaking of Lidar Array I got a bit confused on weapon ranges. So the system provides +25% weapon range when it's not active. And then there's the Distributed fire control hullmod which prevents the installation of ITU and DTC, does that also provide 25% range increase alongside tougher weapons? It's been mentioned Retribution will have to get fairly close to use its weapons but I kinda just assumed it has some small bonus built in. If it's seriously going to be a capital with base range weapons then I guess it deserves all that stats lol.
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2022, 12:28:25 AM »

PL: Has access to the widest variety of ships and weapons
I would say right now "variety" is more of a Diktat theme. Their main gimmick as a faction is having access to literally all weapons in the game. I don't think any other human faction does that.

With weapons now being split between faction, I'm curious about their new direction. Diktat fleets don't seem to have a consistent theme either - it's just a mixture of stuff that "feels elite".
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Farya

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2022, 12:46:27 AM »

I actually liked how mods added more Diktat ships with Solar Shielding built-in. Maybe go the similar way, but instead of Solar Shielding give them their own unique built-in hullmod? Could be some kind of advanced armor that works similar to SS but better at the cost of being unable to mount Heavy Armor.

And if you gonna add more auxilaries - what about Apogee (H)? That one could be a rarer ship used as flagship for hyperspace patrols or something. Currently Remnant infested systems are simply marked with beacons, sometimes pathers also lay in ambush here - but shouldn't Hegemony do the same sometimes? They would not want people to wander in such places for secrecy reasons.
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Eji1700

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2022, 12:57:19 AM »

Adding 3 new capital ships in a single update looks a bit like giving up on preventing capital spam.

The two seem completely unrelated, no? One is how many ships of a given type exist, and the other is how many ships of a given type are in a specific fleet.


To be fair to the point, I think myself and others would like more "elite" frigates and destroyers.  The options are much better than they used to be, but I'll admit i raised an eyebrow when i found out the Ludd's were getting 2 more capitals.

That said, they're amazing, and fit super well.  But I do see the point that faction diversity doesn't just need to be tied up in super capital ships.  The idea that there's some ludd swarmer destroyer that lets them mount 3 perdition wings or a frigate that's nothing but engines and forward facing missile slots would also do a lot to push their "old tech in massive amounts" doctrine (probably not perfect examples but you get the idea).
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Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2022, 12:59:48 AM »

My 2 cents about ship colors/skins:

Those that are literally the same thing but with different paint on it are just needless clutter, I get that they exist for flavour. But you go into combat, see a ship you already recognize but this one looks different, yet it does the same exact thing as a normal one. To me that seems like a placeholder for future content (like we're getting now). Also worth noting is that I don't mind factions sharing ships/weapons as long as they don't overlap too much which is right now being fixed.

And then we have skins that are actually different from the original design. Be it better stats, unique hullmod, different mounts, and so on. These are cool but I still don't want too much of that. Especially pirate variants that are a straight up worse version of base ship. Good examples being Falcon(P), Eradicator(P) and Shrike(P). So what I'm saying is that seeing red paint on a ship, in this case, might mean the ship is, A: literally the same, B: worse version than base or C: something completely different. Of course once you know what each ship does, all of this becomes irrelevant.

Anyways glad we're getting brand new stuff instead of more skins.
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Drazan

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2022, 08:31:22 AM »

I would like to see skins for all the ships, it just adds so much uniqueness and flavor. The differences should be a bit more consistent thats true, but hey, there is not sooo much ships so its not hard to know all of them.
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2022, 10:26:34 AM »

Also, what exactly does Distributed Fire Control do? I got from the blogpost that it is basically a super buffed Armored Weapon Mounts that prevents range boosting hullmods, but does it do anything else?

It reduces weapon damage taken, and EMP damage taken overall, and blocks ITU/DTC; that's it.

Lidar Array when not in active use still boosts weapon range by 25%?

Yep; this *does* affect the turrets, btw.


I have one question: How come the Lidar Array is better than Advanced Targeting Core?  ???

Especially since from the blog:
Quote
but mainly I wanted the ship to feel outdated, and “its targeting systems are so good they’re better than the more modern stuff” doesn’t fit.

By the idea, Lidar Array should be worse, since it is obsolete, but it isn't. It is actually better than Advanced Targeting Core.

...

With this, Lidar Array is much better than Paragon's Advanced Targeting Core, since ATC gives only range bonus and that's it.

Hah! A couple of things here: first off, I don't think we can just brush off the Lidar Array being active - and thus having limited uptime - and also preventing any turreted weapons from firing, only applying its bonus to hardpoints.

Second, as mentioned in the blog post: many of these bonuses (specifically, rate of fire, reduced recoil, projectile speed) are not intrinsic properties of Lidar Array, but specific design features of the Invictus, which was built to take advantage of the window of opportunity Lidar Array opens up.

Also, fwiw, I'm fairly sure the Invictus would be a more effective ship if it had ATC and some other kind of system instead of Lidar Array.



I don't think the preview for the Orion Device is working.

Hmm, weird - seems to be working for me. Hopefully you can see it on twitter, anyway.

I'm actually surprised there wasn't a new capital with the damper field given that system suits the LC's style.  (Side note, have you considered making the Mora into a damper field right click ship?)

I'm not too sure about putting Damper Field on a capital. It's good on ships where either 1) you have a bunch of them so one of them uses it while the rest go to work, and/or 2) on ships that have non-weapon ways of contributing, and just need to survive (e.g. a carrier). I mean, it does let a ship get its flux down some, which is handy on its own, but on a capital... chances are it's going to be the last thing left, and DF would just make it take that much longer to take down. Maybe it could work, though? Just my initial thoughts. I could see experimenting with it at some point.

The Persean League is getting lots of changes?  Interesting, I'd have put the Dictate down as who needed love next after the LC with changes focused on making them less of a copy of the PL that drops the carriers.  The way I add flavor to the SD in my games is to make them use phase ships, since otherwise it's only TT that does in serious numbers.

The Diktat is getting some changes, too.

Before this blog, I'd have said of the major factions that Tri-Tach, Hegemony, and Persean League have the most distinctive identities.

Hmm, interesting - I guess it makes sense about the League, with it having a midline identity, though I wouldn't have included it in the list, just because a lot of factions use a bunch of midline ships. Definitely a subjective evaluation, though, so *thumbs up* and thank for for sharing it!


Speaking of Lidar Array I got a bit confused on weapon ranges. So the system provides +25% weapon range when it's not active. And then there's the Distributed fire control hullmod which prevents the installation of ITU and DTC, does that also provide 25% range increase alongside tougher weapons? It's been mentioned Retribution will have to get fairly close to use its weapons but I kinda just assumed it has some small bonus built in. If it's seriously going to be a capital with base range weapons then I guess it deserves all that stats lol.

DFC gives no bonuses to range, so the Retribution is at base weapon range (plus skills).


To be fair to the point, I think myself and others would like more "elite" frigates and destroyers.  The options are much better than they used to be, but I'll admit i raised an eyebrow when i found out the Ludd's were getting 2 more capitals.

That said, they're amazing, and fit super well.  But I do see the point that faction diversity doesn't just need to be tied up in super capital ships.  The idea that there's some ludd swarmer destroyer that lets them mount 3 perdition wings or a frigate that's nothing but engines and forward facing missile slots would also do a lot to push their "old tech in massive amounts" doctrine (probably not perfect examples but you get the idea).

Hmm. I get what you're saying, but thinking about this outloud - if the faction personality is tied up in a smaller ship, then you've really got to have a bunch of them on the field, right? Whereas if it's a capital, you can have one or two in a fleet, and there is room for more variety among the smaller ships. Plus, the capitals will *still be there* and if they're not faction-unique(ish, at least) then that'll still dilute how unique the faction feels.

My 2 cents about ship colors/skins:

Those that are literally the same thing but with different paint on it are just needless clutter, I get that they exist for flavour. But you go into combat, see a ship you already recognize but this one looks different, yet it does the same exact thing as a normal one. To me that seems like a placeholder for future content (like we're getting now). Also worth noting is that I don't mind factions sharing ships/weapons as long as they don't overlap too much which is right now being fixed.

And then we have skins that are actually different from the original design. Be it better stats, unique hullmod, different mounts, and so on. These are cool but I still don't want too much of that. Especially pirate variants that are a straight up worse version of base ship. Good examples being Falcon(P), Eradicator(P) and Shrike(P). So what I'm saying is that seeing red paint on a ship, in this case, might mean the ship is, A: literally the same, B: worse version than base or C: something completely different. Of course once you know what each ship does, all of this becomes irrelevant.

Anyways glad we're getting brand new stuff instead of more skins.

(FWIW, pretty much on the same page. The early no-modifier skins were a bit of experimentation on our part; they're in now and I wouldn't want to remove them - they're still nice - but it's also hard to see adding more "pure paintjob" type skins.)

I would like to see skins for all the ships, it just adds so much uniqueness and flavor. The differences should be a bit more consistent thats true, but hey, there is not sooo much ships so its not hard to know all of them.

I think you'd be surprised how quickly it would add up! I'm more comfortable with having certain factions (i.e. pirates and the Path) be heavy on faction-specific skins. This both gives them a specific flavor, and helps keep the combinatorial explosion in check.
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Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2022, 10:41:18 AM »

DFC gives no bonuses to range, so the Retribution is at base weapon range (plus skills).
OOF, that's rough. Now I understand why it has all those mounts, especially missile ones. That's certainly going to be a unique ship to pilot but can AI manage such a thing? It's a capital focused on mobility that's going to be outranged by almost everything, I'm just worried it will derp out in combat a lot.

EDIT: Not to forget it seems like its defenses are on par with Atlas MkII, at least it's cheap.
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2022, 11:11:57 AM »

It probably won't be the best ship under AI control - or, at least, the safest. It *is* able to use Orion Device pretty well to close in etc. That's just the way it goes, though; usually the things that make a good/interesting player ship also make it harder for the AI to use to its full potential.
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Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2022, 11:15:41 AM »

It probably won't be the best ship under AI control - or, at least, the safest. It *is* able to use Orion Device pretty well to close in etc. That's just the way it goes, though; usually the things that make a good/interesting player ship also make it harder for the AI to use to its full potential.
Oh yeah naturally, I don't expect AI to be so advanced and scary. I'm just hoping it won't do the "try to go in - receive damage along the way - backpedal - go in again" loop due to low range. If it seriously succeeds at getting into firing range without the need of a reckless officer, then I'll be a happy player.
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