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[Blake81]

I'll say, I really like the way this update is looking; not only the different ship makes everything more unique, but it also makes it fun to hunt for specific ship loadouts/variants for your own fleet.

That said, if I were to request something, I would ask for every faction to have their own variant of the more "Commonplace" ships, and more importantly, for them to be different beyond just the color scheme. The Buffalo (normal, not Mk.II) comes to mind; IIRC, everyone (but the Perseans) has their own, but only the Hegemony one has different stats, and the Pirate variant which had Shielded Holds. All others are just paintjobs. I'd be great if they all had slightly different stats, or even quirks of their own, which reflected what that faction's about (Just like the shielded pirate variant).

Also, I really like the looks of the Invictus; it's blocky shape gives it an oddly Sovietic feel; very utilitarian-looking.

[bowman]

Loving it! Didn't read closely and thought the midline that was teased a bit ago was a cruiser but checked and it's a capital. Loved the Invictus since I first saw its sprite and the Retribution is hilarious- clever idea to make use of the good 'ol nuclear pulse drive. Extremely fitting for LC and a low-tech battlecruiser, indeed.

One concerning thing I noticed though- does Invictus really have 40,000 hull? That seems a little.. extreme. Even with its armor being less effective, that means it nominally has around 45,000 health to chew through which might be kind of reasonable with the perspective of shields being filled and dissipating over a battle but I'm really not sure it'd be fun to sit and shoot it for that long. The other concerning thing about this is hullmods that boost hull HP. If you stack Reinforced Bulkheads on that then it's +40%, and then I can't remember what but there's one that's +20% as well if I recall right. So you can get it to a hefty 64,000 hull + 10,000 armor(at 10% DR effectiveness, admittedly) but that's still ~69,000 health even if you break the armor optimally. Maybe I'm underestimating the damage traded in the average battle but that seems awfully high.
 
For part 2, I hope we get more carrier option(s), since I still feel we're a little lacking in variety (particularly for destroyer and capital tier carriers) Don't get me wrong, we do have a good few but destroyer-tier carriers feel like "do I want the 2 (bad*) civilian ones, or do I want the military one that is kind of ok?" (or do I want the remnant one which doesn't have enough LPC options to meaningfully field, and man I wish it did I love that lil ship). The Legion vs Astral is a much better choice but it feels like there's a gulf between them given how polar-opposite their use cases are (and the Legion doesn't have a carrier system). Which, speaking of carrier systems, if we list out our options:
Other System: Legion, Condor, Mora
Carrier-Centric: Astral, Heron, Drover, Scintilla*, Gemini*
*Scintilla, as mentioned, doesn't currently have enough Drone LPC types to really be fieldable (no kinetic option, only one ~high tech pirahna~ bomber)
*Gemini doesn't really count given it only has 1 bay and the same system as Drover along with worse everything else (because it's civilian, which is fine)
Non carrier-centric systems aren't a requirement but it does lend the ships to being not quite true carriers- it means some of their cost budget is in something else. This is fine, and I love the Legion and Mora both, but it still leaves us (at least to me) with what feels like lacking options for just fielding more fighters. It also, to an extent, leaves us with one option for really fielding bombers at the cruiser level: the heron (because of targeting feed). As well as one for fielding them at the destroyer level: the Drover. If you want your fighters to actually be the ship's primary strength, it ends up boiling down to those, at least in my experience. (Also: please just make all the straight dmg+ skills apply to fighters, as it stands their power goes down over the course of a campaign because captains get all these armor+, dmg- skills for their ship and you get dmg+, hit str+ for weapons to compensate but fighters don't so they just deal less. Oh, and they die faster, because larger battles- and because the only skill affecting them makes them able to kill each other faster, and lets ships kill them faster)

But I digress- this isn't a suggestions page. Part 2 and the hopes I have regarding all the new energy munitions(new LPCs?) got me thinking and if I can make my voice heard then I'd like to try.
No matter what, I look forward to what's in store

[SonnaBanana]

Alex, have there been any changes to Neural Link qnd Cybernetic Augmentation?

[CrashToDesktop]

Carrier-Centric: Astral, Heron, Drover, Scintilla*, Gemini*
*Gemini doesn't really count given it only has 1 bay and the same system as Drover along with worse everything else (because it's civilian, which is fine)

Speaking of the Gemini, I believe Alex has some potential changes for it in the pipeline. Not particularly specific, just "remove civgrade" and "make it better for combat", but there's the potential for it to become interesting.

[Cycerin]

Have to say I didnt expect to see something as insanely "low tech" as an orion drive in Starsector but now that it's here I gotta say you made it really cool (and made it feel like it makes sense, to boot) - awesome work

[RustyCabbage]

The ships look sweet! Glad to see more faction diversification too. Hopefully this means we'll have more uniqueness for our mid-line factions coming up as well. Couple comments on the numbers:

1. Does Heavy Armor still only increase the Invictus's armor by 500? My only issue with the Ablative armor hullmod is that it seems like it will play very poorly with flat armor increases and runs counter to how armor has worked for every other ship. I'm a little hesitant to bring up mod content, but Dark.Revenant's Interstellar Imperium accomplishes something similar to ablative armor (although nowhere near the same degree) by having a reasonable base armor and applying a modifyMult (and then of course reducing the armor strength for damage reduction proportionally). Food for thought if it isn't already the case I guess.

2. 10 large ballistic weapons with 600 base flux seems... unfortunate. I guess it is unshielded, but when the system is activated triple fire rate means 12 larges worth of flux generation (unless like Accelerated Ammo Feeder it comes with a flux reduction? One can hope, but I don't see it in the status messages). I get the idea that it's supposed to be relatively benign except for dangerous bursts of activity, but it seems a bit crippled here, especially since its low OP makes Flux Distributor or even Resistant Flux Conduits probably unattractive. 18 second vent time at max flux is twice as much as any other ship currently in the game, which gives me the impression that in long or hard fights this ship will at some point just ramp up its flux and refuse to vent, firing its weapons only piecemeal until it's worn down and destroyed. Couple that with a somewhat egregious 40000 hull (which I'm sure will also get Blast Doors and Reinforced Bulkheads)... I'd love to be told I'm wrong. It's just kind of weird given it comes alongside the Retribution with its possibly ridiculous 900 base flux (I guess it seems fragile enough to deserve it?).

(On the other hand, 12 ballistic larges at Paragon range could be I'm doomsaying too early.)

3. 4000 skeleton crew, while very thematic, makes this ship seem like it will be hellish to maintain. More importantly, it seems like it will be essentially be unrecoverable without mothballing it and dragging it to a market (probably several), simply to restore its crew. Simply, it seems like its place in a player fleet will be more burdensome than productive, except perhaps as a glorified combat freighter/transport. Which would be a shame given it seems like it has a really cool design.

[Histidine]

>10k armor
"ALEX WHAT THE ***"
>reads next paragraph
"oh phew"

Nice, more differentiation on the menu for League!

3. 4000 skeleton crew, while very thematic, makes this ship seem like it will be hellish to maintain. More importantly, it seems like it will be essentially be unrecoverable without mothballing it and dragging it to a market (probably several), simply to restore its crew. Simply, it seems like its place in a player fleet will be more burdensome than productive, except perhaps as a glorified combat freighter/transport. Which would be a shame given it seems like it has a really cool design.

Yeah 4k sounds a bit screwy. At minimum it'll get Efficiency Overhaul installed straight off the bat, which brings crew requirement down to "only" 3200. Also don't get it disabled/destroyed in combat or you'll have to empty the Chicomoztoc open and black markets for replacement crew.

[ILuvLegion]

I was looking closer at the example detachment for the Luddic church, and I didn’t recognize the last fighter (the one with six fighters in the wing). Is it new, or am I just forgetting one? If it is new, can you tell us anything about it Alex?

[Alex]

I really like the hegemony auxiliary ships and wished there were more for hegemony lol like the mule or venture or even the tankers like dram and nebula lol.

I could see that at some point! I enjoy the "Hegemony has auxiliaries filling in the low-end gaps" feel; just makes it feel more real somehow.

- on another note I wonder if Sindrian Diktat will get unique auxiliary ships too, such as bringing back the old Gemini (without civilian class hull) or drover in Diktat colors but i guess this update is focused on capitals

Not necessarily focused on capitals as much as capitals are an effective way to give a faction something that will represent it in the player's mind. But, yeah - the Diktat has some specific changes too, but, that's what part 2 is for

I wasn’t expecting the Retribution at all so color me pleasantly surprised. “Orkish” (Warhammer 40k) as has been previously described, was exactly my thought. More dakka and painted red. I kid you not, an SO Pather variant needs to exist and it needs to have potentially disastrous effects on the Orion Device mid-battle.

Hmm, I've got a note about a pirate version. For the Pathers, let's just say they did manage to get their hands on OD.

As for the Invictus, I was very curious how the LiDAR and Armor mechanics were going to work (along with DP cost) so I’m glad you clarified. At 60 DP, I’m curious if the Invictus is supposed to challenge a Paragon outright (or an Onslaught for that matter) or if it’s more akin to a siege weapon that ultimately doesn’t want to be be out front trading fire with other capitals. Phase Ships will be the bane of its existence.

1 vs 1 (which, very limited usefulness) it absolutely mauls an Onslaught, and loses quite cleanly to a Paragon - though you could probably? come up with a more specialized loadout where it doesn't - but still, by nature, a Paragon is a fairly hard counter. With something like 4x Gauss Cannon, it will successfully kite the Paragon, but the Paragon has plenty of time to vent in between barrages (and does so) so it's a stalemate. Which, I guess - more peak time on the Invictus, so it'd be a "win"... but 1 vs 1 is just not what you'd expect to see in actual use. I don't think phase ships hurt it more than other ships - it's not as susceptible to alpha strikes, so it'd probably be more hurt by flankers capable of putting out more sustained dps.

Edit: the OCD in me is asking why both large missiles are on the same side versus a more aesthetically pleasing symmetrical design. Just saying…

Hah - to me, having both missiles on the same side is *much more* aesthetically pleasing - and makes in-fiction design sense, too. You've got a missile battery there, as opposed to two separate launchers. It's also easier to see when/what it's firing, and there's a tactical wrinkle to it firing all missiles from one side.

First time on the forums in nearly five and a half years and the first post I see is my greenskins finally getting the love they so richly deserve.

Welcome back

I'll say, I really like the way this update is looking; not only the different ship makes everything more unique, but it also makes it fun to hunt for specific ship loadouts/variants for your own fleet.

Thank you!

That said, if I were to request something, I would ask for every faction to have their own variant of the more "Commonplace" ships, and more importantly, for them to be different beyond just the color scheme. The Buffalo (normal, not Mk.II) comes to mind; IIRC, everyone (but the Perseans) has their own, but only the Hegemony one has different stats, and the Pirate variant which had Shielded Holds. All others are just paintjobs. I'd be great if they all had slightly different stats, or even quirks of their own, which reflected what that faction's about (Just like the shielded pirate variant).

I want to be careful about adding too many of those "low impact" paintjob versions, even with minor mechanical differences. I don't think it's enough of an issue to remove existing ones - they're neat! - but if done too liberally, it's liable to become a bunch of clutter.

Loving it! Didn't read closely and thought the midline that was teased a bit ago was a cruiser but checked and it's a capital. Loved the Invictus since I first saw its sprite and the Retribution is hilarious- clever idea to make use of the good 'ol nuclear pulse drive. Extremely fitting for LC and a low-tech battlecruiser, indeed.

Thank you!

One concerning thing I noticed though- does Invictus really have 40,000 hull? That seems a little.. extreme. Even with its armor being less effective, that means it nominally has around 45,000 health to chew through which might be kind of reasonable with the perspective of shields being filled and dissipating over a battle but I'm really not sure it'd be fun to sit and shoot it for that long. The other concerning thing about this is hullmods that boost hull HP. If you stack Reinforced Bulkheads on that then it's +40%, and then I can't remember what but there's one that's +20% as well if I recall right. So you can get it to a hefty 64,000 hull + 10,000 armor(at 10% DR effectiveness, admittedly) but that's still ~69,000 health even if you break the armor optimally. Maybe I'm underestimating the damage traded in the average battle but that seems awfully high.

I get that, yeah - that was a concern of mine, too. I've played out a bunch of vs-Luddic-Church fights and it seems fine, though. It's really tough to put enough damage on it to kill it before everything around it is down, that's kind of the point. But more importantly, once it's alone, it goes down pretty fast - Ablative Armor really makes a difference there.

 

For part 2, I hope we get more carrier option(s),

...

But I digress- this isn't a suggestions page. Part 2 and the hopes I have regarding all the new energy munitions(new LPCs?) got me thinking and if I can make my voice heard then I'd like to try.
No matter what, I look forward to what's in store

I get what you're saying, and appreciate the suggestions! I feel like ultimately if you're not piloting a carrier, it's harder to make the system it has matter, so hybrid ships - with non-fighter-boosting systems, and some conventional capability - end up being more interesting. Yeah, there's not too many ways to get a bunch of fighters on the field - but if there were more ways, I'd like for them to be substantially different, otherwise it's still just... "more fighters on the field". There's room to do more stuff here, but it's also not something I'm particularly focused on, if we're being honest - and I don't think "really specializes in fighters" turns out to be all that interesting a faction identity; they seem more interesting to me as a way to spice things up, not the main course, if that makes sense. (I'm sure that there are perfectly good modded factions that *do* do this; this is just my perspecive on things in vanilla...)

Speaking of the Gemini, I believe Alex has some potential changes for it in the pipeline. Not particularly specific, just "remove civgrade" and "make it better for combat", but there's the potential for it to become interesting.

Thanks for the reminder!

Have to say I didnt expect to see something as insanely "low tech" as an orion drive in Starsector but now that it's here I gotta say you made it really cool (and made it feel like it makes sense, to boot) - awesome work

Hahah - thank you! I'm glad it feels like it makes sense, it's just so over the top but I *had to*.

1. Does Heavy Armor still only increase the Invictus's armor by 500? My only issue with the Ablative armor hullmod is that it seems like it will play very poorly with flat armor increases and runs counter to how armor has worked for every other ship. I'm a little hesitant to bring up mod content, but Dark.Revenant's Interstellar Imperium accomplishes something similar to ablative armor (although nowhere near the same degree) by having a reasonable base armor and applying a modifyMult (and then of course reducing the armor strength for damage reduction proportionally). Food for thought if it isn't already the case I guess.

Yeah, 500 from Heavy Armor. I think it makes sense; there's only so much more metal you can strap onto what's basically a chunk of metal. Gameplay-wise, I think it'd be fine either way - the ship has plenty of useful things to spend OP on so it's not like missing out on a "boost armor some more" option is going to hurt variety.

2. 10 large ballistic weapons with 600 base flux seems... unfortunate. I guess it is unshielded, but when the system is activated triple fire rate means 12 larges worth of flux generation (unless like Accelerated Ammo Feeder it comes with a flux reduction? One can hope, but I don't see it in the status messages). I get the idea that it's supposed to be relatively benign except for dangerous bursts of activity, but it seems a bit crippled here, especially since its low OP makes Flux Distributor or even Resistant Flux Conduits probably unattractive. 18 second vent time at max flux is twice as much as any other ship currently in the game, which gives me the impression that in long or hard fights this ship will at some point just ramp up its flux and refuse to vent, firing its weapons only piecemeal until it's worn down and destroyed. Couple that with a somewhat egregious 40000 hull (which I'm sure will also get Blast Doors and Reinforced Bulkheads)... I'd love to be told I'm wrong. It's just kind of weird given it comes alongside the Retribution with its possibly ridiculous 900 base flux (I guess it seems fragile enough to deserve it?).

That said, I haven't observed the ship get into much flux trouble - certainly not flux-lock itself; how much you invest in vents affects this a lot, of course. It's also much happier to vent while under fire due to its high hull and armor.

(On the other hand, 12 ballistic larges at Paragon range could be I'm doomsaying too early.)

It's only 4 ballistics at +100% range - just the hardpoints.

3. 4000 skeleton crew, while very thematic, makes this ship seem like it will be hellish to maintain. More importantly, it seems like it will be essentially be unrecoverable without mothballing it and dragging it to a market (probably several), simply to restore its crew. Simply, it seems like its place in a player fleet will be more burdensome than productive, except perhaps as a glorified combat freighter/transport. Which would be a shame given it seems like it has a really cool design.

Yeah 4k sounds a bit screwy. At minimum it'll get Efficiency Overhaul installed straight off the bat, which brings crew requirement down to "only" 3200. Also don't get it disabled/destroyed in combat or you'll have to empty the Chicomoztoc open and black markets for replacement crew.

I get the concern, but ... thematic! It's the ship with big numbers. We'll see, though.

>10k armor
"ALEX WHAT THE ***"
>reads next paragraph
"oh phew"

Yesss! It was totally intended to "get" the reader - at least, one that has an appreciation of what 10k armor means - so, glad it worked

I was looking closer at the example detachment for the Luddic church, and I didn’t recognize the last fighter (the one with six fighters in the wing). Is it new, or am I just forgetting one? If it is new, can you tell us anything about it Alex?

Ah - those are just the Shepherd's Borer drones

[woodsmoke]

The Buffalo (normal, not Mk.II) comes to mind; IIRC, everyone (but the Perseans) has their own, but only the Hegemony one has different stats, and the Pirate variant which had Shielded Holds. All others are just paintjobs. I'd be great if they all had slightly different stats, or even quirks of their own, which reflected what that faction's about (Just like the shielded pirate variant).

I don't recall seeing a Sindrian Buffalo variant, just Hegemony auxiliary and TT/LC paint jobs.

On that note, I don't think the LC should even be using the Buffalo, on account of it's tagged as a high tech hull. Granted, that designation doesn't really make sense; it's just an engine built onto a modular frame for attaching cargo containers. Same as the Atlas, just a lot smaller, but the Atlas is low tech.

Regardless, I think a better fit for the faction's theme and aesthetic is the Tarsus. This also dovetails nicely with the regular presence of Condors in Luddic fleets, given their propensity for adding modified flight decks to ships in order to field fighter complements. Taking excess or requisitioning Tarsus hulls from your trade fleets and converting them into Condors for carrier support in military actions is just taking that mentality to its logical conclusion.

[Caymon Joestar]

Looking at the battlecruiser, it doesn't really seem like a lowtech battlecruiser to me tbh.

Like Yeah, it clearly has a focus on speed but currently it feels like it's an oddy that trades the fighter bays for some more missiles and front facing larges but otherwise is like really really really similar in stats to the oddy as far as I tell from the screenshots in the post

Obviously, you're still finalizing stats and stuff so it can and prob will change between now and whenever you release it but things to maybe look at:

-800 armor vs oddy's 1000 (Doesnt really make sense at least to me since it's lowtech, it should have matching or even slightly better armor)

-900(?) Flux diss to oddy's 1000 (50% more diss over the onslaught seems like a bit overkill, 750 or 800 I think would be more in line while also allowing you to maybe give it better armor or shield speaking of shield

-Shields: While having a shield for it is nice and all, it feels like it's gonna be more of a liability with its current stats. Maybe it might be more interesting to give it a damper field right click instead? Would feel like a logical conclusion to the vanguard line if we ever get a damper field destroyer/cruiser.

-Speed: It seems to have a similar if not barely higher speed over the oddy? (70 vs 75? 73?) Feels weird to have something be on par with the tech that focuses on speed.

Sorry if it seems like backseating. I like it's design tho

[SafariJohn]

it's just an engine built onto a modular frame for attaching cargo containers. Same as the Atlas, just a lot smaller, but the Atlas is low tech.

If you look closely you will see the Buffalo has cargo doors, not detachable containers.

[Alex]

On that note, I don't think the LC should even be using the Buffalo, on account of it's tagged as a high tech hull. Granted, that designation doesn't really make sense; it's just an engine built onto a modular frame for attaching cargo containers. Same as the Atlas, just a lot smaller, but the Atlas is low tech.

The Atlas is midline, btw. And fwiw, the LC will also have access to the Tarsus. I think the tech level itself isn't a good reason in-fiction to use or not use something; it's more about what the faction has access to. I think having that kind of variety and deviation from strict tech level adherence makes the factions feel better/more believable overall.

Looking at the battlecruiser, it doesn't really seem like a lowtech battlecruiser to me tbh.

Like Yeah, it clearly has a focus on speed but currently it feels like it's an oddy that trades the fighter bays for some more missiles and front facing larges but otherwise is like really really really similar in stats to the oddy as far as I tell from the screenshots in the post

Obviously, you're still finalizing stats and stuff so it can and prob will change between now and whenever you release it but things to maybe look at:

-800 armor vs oddy's 1000 (Doesnt really make sense at least to me since it's lowtech, it should have matching or even slightly better armor)

-900(?) Flux diss to oddy's 1000 (50% more diss over the onslaught seems like a bit overkill, 750 or 800 I think would be more in line while also allowing you to maybe give it better armor or shield speaking of shield

-Shields: While having a shield for it is nice and all, it feels like it's gonna be more of a liability with its current stats. Maybe it might be more interesting to give it a damper field right click instead? Would feel like a logical conclusion to the vanguard line if we ever get a damper field destroyer/cruiser.

-Speed: It seems to have a similar if not barely higher speed over the oddy? (70 vs 75? 73?) Feels weird to have something be on par with the tech that focuses on speed.

Sorry if it seems like backseating. I like it's design tho

Re: the flux dissipation, yeah, that's the stat I'm looking at as I pat the nerf bat, but again, we'll see.

I think... the way you're looking at it might perhaps be similar to the way I mentioned in the blog post as the way that leads to not being able to design a satisfactory low-tech battlecruiser

For example, the armor and the speed - yeah, I get what you're saying. But consider that the ship's designers simply made a harder tradeoff here - they took a lot more armor off, and squeezed more speed out of it. If you stick with "has to have more armor than a high-tech BC, has to have less speed than a high-tech BC" and so on, you constrain the design space so much that you get something less interesting. Fast low-tech ships already exist. Low-tech ships with very light armor already exist, too. The idea that low tech combat ships *must* have higher armor/be slower is a shackle of our own making - let go of it, and be free!

Having spent a bunch of time piloting one: the shields are super useful, btw!

[RustyCabbage]

(On the other hand, 12 ballistic larges at Paragon range could be I'm doomsaying too early.)

It's only 4 ballistics at +100% range - just the hardpoints.

Aye, was referring to that being coupled with +200% fire rate

[Alex]

Ah, makes sense!