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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hostile Activity (09/01/22)

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Author Topic: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1  (Read 14308 times)

Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2022, 10:47:05 AM »

Adding 3 new capital ships in a single update looks a bit like giving up on preventing capital spam.

The two seem completely unrelated, no? One is how many ships of a given type exist, and the other is how many ships of a given type are in a specific fleet.

Retribution looks like it can support triple gauss with its flux stats, and SIX harpoon pods on top of that. While being faster than Odyssey.

While moving forward, yeah, it's faster. Still, it's entirely possible the Retribution is overtuned right now; it's something I'm keeping an eye on. So far in testing I haven't been doing better with it as the flagship compared to using an Odyssey, but, yeah, keeping all this in mind.


Maaaan I'm so happy we're getting new capitals to make everything feel cool in their own way. That said, a ship with 4 built in hullmods dayuum, you'll need 5 minutes just to understand how the ship even works. Everything that's been shown so far I'm really content with, honestly have zero criticism except pls don't have us wait too long for part 2  :'(

*thumbs up*

And, yeah - in general I *try* to keep the number of built-ins down, but the Invictus is just so much its own thing that it felt like it really needed all of them.

Can't wait to see how the other factions became more unique (I'd guess all those missiles teased before play a role hmm).

You bet!

Interesting. I'd always liked the feel of the Sector as a place where people are mostly 'stuck with what they've got', and so while I'm a fan of faction mods, the way they often come with whole fleets worth of custom ships quite swiftly makes the game feel really bloated for me; this 'compromise' of emphasizing different capitals with a pool of 'what you got' around it plus specific weapon picks seems like a neat direction. Tweaking faction files towards this standard may be more work for me to tailor the game to my liking but it's a nifty sort of standard idea to work around.

Cool, I'm glad you like the approach! More or less on the same page here, at least as far as vanilla feel - though I certainly do understand why someone making a mod would go for a specific feel and a complete ship line-up, and there's all sorts of ways to justify it in-fiction.

... and a midline (?) missile destroyer.

Hmm?
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2022, 10:49:16 AM »

Did David trick me? He posted an emoji in a large missile destroyer speculation thread once. My heart is shattered, how could he do it.  :'(
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Destructively Phased

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2022, 10:52:11 AM »

With a new battle cruiser, any chance you could review the accessibility of the odyssey? It’s always been a hard to acquire ship, being the only capital ship that can be hard to acquire for a player for who credits and lost ships aren’t a concern. As unlike the other 5 capitals (sorry atlas and Prometheus MK2) that appear in the game right now, the odyssey doesn’t spawn in faction bounty fleets, doesn’t appear in major markets and I know of only one fixed spawn, the bounty fleets protecting the tri-tach planet during the storyline quest.

This leaves the only ways I know of to get an odyssey reliably (as in get a replacement if you get it blown up) to either get lucky exploring or using the historian, or grind a ridiculously high relationship with a Diktat official and get one built (though you’ll be looking at a relationship of close to 100 and priority contact for the price to drop to the point where it’s within the amount your permitted to spend). Or raid planets.

The odyssey appearing more often would be nice to see, since it’s a fun capital to fly and with its stats it works as a good flagship for a high-risk exploration fleet. Maybe it could work for exceptionally large AI exploration and salvage fleets, or the Tri-Tach as a flagship for forces that need a capital class flagship but don’t need a battleship or carrier?

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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2022, 10:54:29 AM »

Did David trick me? He posted an emoji in a large missile destroyer speculation thread once. My heart is shattered, how could he do it.  :'(

Ahhhh - there's something behind that, indeed, but your speculation has taken you down the wrong path :)

With a new battle cruiser, any chance you could review the accessibility of the odyssey? It’s always been a hard to acquire ship, being the only capital ship that can be hard to acquire for a player for who credits and lost ships aren’t a concern.

This is getting a bit into "part 2" territory, but yeah, it should become easier to get!
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Wyvern

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2022, 11:16:46 AM »

Did David trick me? He posted an emoji in a large missile destroyer speculation thread once. My heart is shattered, how could he do it.  :'(

Ahhhh - there's something behind that, indeed, but your speculation has taken you down the wrong path :)
Hm... Clearly the answer is synergy-type weapons? You don't need a separate hull for a large missile destroyer if you can just put your large missiles on a Sunder!
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2022, 11:34:37 AM »

For the battlecruiser, it only has 800 armor and a 1.2 shield! Its flux stats are probably good, but this thing is looking like an extreme glass cannon for a capital. Its like a big Eradicator... that is much easier to kill!
It also has that new built-in Distributed Fire Control that prevents DTC/ITU.  It will trade shot range for weapon durability, and it will have likely have less range than a heavy energy weapon with ITU.  Basically, a high-tech ship in low-tech clothing.
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Amoebka

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2022, 11:41:37 AM »

It also has that new built-in Distributed Fire Control that prevents DTC/ITU.  It will trade shot range for weapon durability, and it will have likely have less range than a heavy energy weapon with ITU.  Basically, a high-tech ship in low-tech clothing.

A heavy energy weapon (plasma, autopulse) with capital-grade ITU and gunnery implants is 1225 range.

A mauler/HVD with just gunnery and ballistic mastery is 1250 range.
A gauss with gunnery and ballistic mastery is 1500 range.

A normal small/medium ballistic with a rangefinder and both skills is 1125. Not exactly "short range" either, it's only 100 range less than the high-tech.
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Megas

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2022, 11:58:29 AM »

A heavy energy weapon (plasma, autopulse) with capital-grade ITU and gunnery implants is 1225 range.

A mauler/HVD with just gunnery and ballistic mastery is 1250 range.
A gauss with gunnery and ballistic mastery is 1500 range.

A normal small/medium ballistic with a rangefinder and both skills is 1125. Not exactly "short range" either, it's only 100 range less than the high-tech.
Gauss is an obvious exception, but it is also the most inefficient ballistic weapon, and it shoots slowly (not good against nimble hordes).

I did not include skills because not everyone will have the skills, like unofficered ships or ships with low-level officers and few skills.  I had unskilled ships with only hullmods available in mind.

So, 700 +60% is 1120.  900 without any extra range is 900.  The ship needs Gauss Cannons to exceed capital ITU boosted heavy energy weapons.  Also, cruiser heavy energy ITU is 980, so Retribution needs at least HVD/Mauler to barely exceed that.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 12:06:31 PM by Megas »
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Bastion.Systems

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2022, 12:22:41 PM »

Neat, Retribution is a delightfully orkish ship.
I am interested what you will do with the League and the Diktat.
My main problem with League is that Thule is a very boring system, both visually and by the lack of markets and long in-system travel times.
Kazeron also does not really look like it could support size 7 population.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 12:25:11 PM by Bastion.Systems »
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Botaragno

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2022, 12:40:17 PM »

MMMmmmmmmm delicious Luddic church content mmmm Yummy

Now how do we spice up the Indie and Sindrian faction rosters I wonder.
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Some day the Conquest will be a viable capital..... some day....

Grievous69

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2022, 01:02:25 PM »

Oh I actually forgot to ask something important, can we know the DP costs for these capitals? They both seem quite scary but with such glaring weaknesses I doubt they're expensive. Invictus probably doesn't cost more than a Paragon and Retribution could be anywhere between 35-45 for all I know, there's still a few unknown factors.
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Alex

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2022, 01:17:57 PM »

Oh I actually forgot to ask something important, can we know the DP costs for these capitals? They both seem quite scary but with such glaring weaknesses I doubt they're expensive. Invictus probably doesn't cost more than a Paragon and Retribution could be anywhere between 35-45 for all I know, there's still a few unknown factors.

The Invictus is 60, the Retribution is currently 35 - but, again, the actual balance of the Retribution is... not fully coalesced, let's say. I could see it's DP going up a bit (though I'd prefer to keep it), or perhaps its flux stats getting downgraded some; we'll see. I really just need to do more testing - it both feels "too good" offhand but also did not seem to outperform the Odyssey, so I need to figure out which it *actually* is.
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Satirical

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2022, 01:26:10 PM »

I really like the hegemony auxiliary ships and wished there were more for hegemony lol like the mule or venture or even the tankers like dram and nebula lol.

- on another note I wonder if Sindrian Diktat will get unique auxiliary ships too, such as bringing back the old Gemini (without civilian class hull) or drover in Diktat colors but i guess this update is focused on capitals :)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 01:28:29 PM by Satirical »
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FooF

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2022, 01:50:13 PM »

Super cool blogpost and the fleets having much more-clearly defined “profiles” (literally) is a huge step in the right direction.

I wasn’t expecting the Retribution at all so color me pleasantly surprised. “Orkish” (Warhammer 40k) as has been previously described, was exactly my thought. More dakka and painted red. I kid you not, an SO Pather variant needs to exist and it needs to have potentially disastrous effects on the Orion Device mid-battle.

As for the Invictus, I was very curious how the LiDAR and Armor mechanics were going to work (along with DP cost) so I’m glad you clarified. At 60 DP, I’m curious if the Invictus is supposed to challenge a Paragon outright (or an Onslaught for that matter) or if it’s more akin to a siege weapon that ultimately doesn’t want to be be out front trading fire with other capitals. Phase Ships will be the bane of its existence.

Edit: the OCD in me is asking why both large missiles are on the same side versus a more aesthetically pleasing symmetrical design. Just saying…

All told, this was not the blog post I was expecting but the one I needed. New ships always are exciting and knowing the other factions are getting love makes me happy. I look forward to the unique super-battleship Lion of Sindria;D
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 02:05:36 PM by FooF »
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woodsmoke

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Re: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 1
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2022, 01:52:19 PM »

First time on the forums in nearly five and a half years and the first post I see is my greenskins finally getting the love they so richly deserve.

Ludd Vult!
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