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Author Topic: Is the Enforcer too slow?  (Read 4610 times)

Locklave

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Is the Enforcer too slow?
« on: February 20, 2022, 05:58:43 AM »

Before saying no please consider the recent changes and new ships added. Consider the Eradicator (a cruiser) speed 70 and Vanguard (a frigate) 135.

Shouldn't the Enforcer (a destroyer) be someplace between 70 and 135 instead of 60, 10 slower then the cruiser? Those overall ship designs follow a pattern but the Enforcers speed seems like an outlier.

If I'm overlooking something please fill me in.

I'd also like to add the Dominator to this line of thinking being 30 speed. Even the Onslaught speed should be reconsidered given the change in design concept for Low Tech.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 06:02:19 AM by Locklave »
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Grievous69

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2022, 06:23:10 AM »

Enforcer is ridiculously tanky for its size and cost, and then you have 4 small missile mounts that can fire at once along with ballistic package. That would be a pain if you have a swarm of them. Both Eradicator and Vanguard have their own weaknesses so I don't think it's fair to look at speed stats so simply. Enforcers are basically an early game check to see if your fleet has enough HE damage.
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Helldiver

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2022, 07:00:48 AM »

Shouldn't the Enforcer (a destroyer) be someplace between 70 and 135 instead of 60, 10 slower then the cruiser?

Why does it being a destroyer imply that it should be faster? Small ships can be slower than bigger ships, there is no law that says otherwise.

It's a big fat escort/anchor destroyer with enough ballistic mounts that it can run two flaks with three offensive medium guns with a flurry of missiles on top. Its shield isn't even that bad anymore so it's a real tank of a ship too.
In all aspects of its design including visual design everything points to it being a small but though machine and the low speed fits. It has the "new" and improved Burn Drive for moving around the battlefield and chasing certain targets too so it's not actually a snail anymore.

I like it being slow.

Those overall ship designs follow a pattern but the Enforcers speed seems like an outlier.

Clearly not an outlier considering the Dominator and Onslaught that you mention just after.
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Locklave

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2022, 07:35:44 AM »

Clearly not an outlier considering the Dominator and Onslaught that you mention just after.

Those ships are slower then the smaller counterparts, so Enforcer is an outlier. I'm suggesting that the Dominator/Onslaught need to be looked at since the Low tech theme is High cost/High performance, which is a completely different aspect related to speed. Please don't conflate them.

Why does it being a destroyer imply that it should be faster? Small ships can be slower than bigger ships, there is no law that says otherwise.

It's a big fat escort/anchor destroyer with enough ballistic mounts that it can run two flaks with three offensive medium guns with a flurry of missiles on top. Its shield isn't even that bad anymore so it's a real tank of a ship too.
In all aspects of its design including visual design everything points to it being a small but though machine and the low speed fits. It has the "new" and improved Burn Drive for moving around the battlefield and chasing certain targets too so it's not actually a snail anymore.

I like it being slow.

The Eradicator the exact same type of ship except larger and tankier with an ammo feeder instead of a burn drive. I'm not going to humor you pretending that the Enforcer is filling a different role. Enforcer is inferior to Eradicator in filling the same role without an upside. The enforcer used to be fast relative to other low tech, then the rework came.

Fat Escort/Anchor is not a actual role. I will not pretend it is. Those are weaknesses.

Enforcer is ridiculously tanky for its size and cost, and then you have 4 small missile mounts that can fire at once along with ballistic package. That would be a pain if you have a swarm of them. Both Eradicator and Vanguard have their own weaknesses so I don't think it's fair to look at speed stats so simply. Enforcers are basically an early game check to see if your fleet has enough HE damage.

Eradicator has no weakness it's just a good ship that fills it's role well, so explain what you are talking about. I'd say the Eradicator is the most like the Enforcer in terms of how the ship fights and what it's expected job is in the fleet, I'm at a loss as to how anyone can't see it.

I made a thread about Vanguard being terrible, that ship has problems it shouldn't have, but the point is to make low tech not be worst tech. The old low tech ships need to be looked at the way the Lasher was.
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Amoebka

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2022, 08:10:18 AM »

So, basically, you want low-tech ships to have the same speed as everyone else on top of all the other unique benefits they have? If anything, Eradicator shouldn't be as fast as it is.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 08:13:34 AM by Amoebka »
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Grievous69

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2022, 08:27:04 AM »

Eradicator has no weakness it's just a good ship that fills it's role well, so explain what you are talking about.
Well first, it is quite undergunned with ballistics considering it's a 20 DP cruiser, but with AAF that doesn't matter much. What I think really stands out with Eradicator is its durability, yes for a low tech ship it's speedy, but also for a low tech ship it's quite easy to kill. When you compare sizes and costs, Eradicator is probably one of the squishiest low tech ships. When pressured it can die easily, even with lvl 5 officer. Last playthrough I had 2-3 in my fleet and eventually swapped them out for tougher cruisers. They seem very potent but I wouldn't go as far as to say they're without a weakness.
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Megas

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2022, 09:16:53 AM »

I would love Eagle and maybe Fury get the firepower Eradicator (of either variant) has.
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Supraluminal

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2022, 09:33:12 AM »

I don't see how the Enforcer and Eradicator are intended to fill the same role. Different ship class, different systems, different speeds. Very different durability specs compared to others in their class:

The Enforcer (900 armor/6k hull) has more armor and hull than any destroyer, and it's not even a particularly close race for second-toughest. Manticore is 750/5k, Mule is 650/5.5k. And really, you should probably be comparing the Enforcer XIV, which is quite easy to find and has +100 armor for a round 1k.

The Eradicator (1.2k armor/9k hull) is firmly middle of the pack or even slightly fragile by frontline cruiser standards - there are five with higher armor (Dominator, Doom, Mora, Venture, Champion) and four of those have more hull as well.

Relative durability is maybe the most obvious difference, but another one that's easy to overlook is relative OP budget. The Enforcer clocks in at fully 110 OP, once again the highest in the destroyer category. (The XIV has 115!) The Eradicator has 150, which is again quite average for a cruiser.

To fully appreciate these differences, you also have to consider cost. The Enforcer is best-in-class on all these measures yet comes in at 9 DP, one of the cheapest combat destroyers. The base Eradicator is 20DP, again about average compared to other options in its weight class. The Enforcer is bringing ~12.5 OP/DP, the Eradicator only 7.5. That's a 66% advantage in the Enforcer's favor.

To my mind, it seems pretty clear that the Enforcer is indeed built to be a "fat escort/anchor" ship. It's just fast enough to keep pace with bigger ships, and trades any speed beyond that for OP budget and durability. It's perfectly suited for hanging near larger/slower ships to fend off flankers, or sitting in the line of battle and punching above its weight. (In fights without heavier ships - e.g. early-game - it's very much a pocket battleship that can anchor the line itself.) The burn drive gives it the ability to reposition when needed, but stops short of making it a really good flanker/pursuit ship.

Meanwhile the Eradicator is comparatively fast and has AAF for burst DPS. It can charge a target, deliver a big hit, and tank a reasonable amount of counter-fire while it withdraws. It's also fine as a line ship but not really tanky enough to be a true anchor against competing ships in its class. It's weighted towards offense over defense.

None of this is intended to be talking down the Eradicator by the way, which I like quite a lot. It's not quite as much of a bargain for the DP cost as the Enforcer in my opinion, but AAF is a hell of a ship system and it's a great bully. I just wouldn't ever think to use it for the same jobs I use an Enforcer for.

TL;DR: The Eradicator is a hammer, the Enforcer is an anvil, through and through.

One last thought... overall I don't think you're going to get a lot of agreement on this one. You're also being oddly dismissive and hostile towards people who disagree with you, right out of the gate, which is not a good way to produce a useful conversation.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 09:45:55 AM by Supraluminal »
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Thaago

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2022, 04:37:32 PM »

...

The Eradicator the exact same type of ship except larger and tankier with an ammo feeder instead of a burn drive. I'm not going to humor you pretending that the Enforcer is filling a different role. Enforcer is inferior to Eradicator in filling the same role without an upside. The enforcer used to be fast relative to other low tech, then the rework came.

Fat Escort/Anchor is not a actual role. I will not pretend it is. Those are weaknesses.

...
Eradicator has no weakness it's just a good ship that fills it's role well, so explain what you are talking about. I'd say the Eradicator is the most like the Enforcer in terms of how the ship fights and what it's expected job is in the fleet, I'm at a loss as to how anyone can't see it.

I made a thread about Vanguard being terrible, that ship has problems it shouldn't have, but the point is to make low tech not be worst tech. The old low tech ships need to be looked at the way the Lasher was.

@Locklave please be more polite to other forum users; the above statements are unnecessarily condescending and aggressive.
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DirectionsToL3Please

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2022, 05:08:29 PM »

If I'm overlooking something please fill me in.
You get a tremendous value for 9 Deployment Points, especially if you're using XIV Enforcers.  With Unstable Injector and a Helmsman pilot, you're still getting 90 speed and very decent maneuverability from your ship which is plenty, and since they're destroyers you don't need to spend any OP on Hardened Subsystems to have them be able to stick out moderately lengthy fights.  Omni shield plus ludicrous armor when you add Heavy Armor means they can soak broadsides from battleships if they absolutely have to.

I find that 4x Annihilator pods, 2x HVD, 1x Mauler, 2x Dual Flak makes for an incredible standalone ship that can easily chase down and pop any AI destroyer short of [REDACTED], and is an absolute terror when unleashed on pirate or Luddite fleets.  I keep 2-3 XIV Enforcers in my fleet whenever possible - there are much better options for a player ship of course but they're incredibly low-operating-cost, durable supports for mid-game and late-mid-game fleets when you put an AI pilot in them.

Not everything needs to be fast.  Especially in the mid game and later, you probably are fielding ships that are moving slower than the Enforcer, so while you probably want to have some quick and agile flanking vessels, there's a lot of value in holding the line with durable, low-cost destroyers while your other ships do their thing.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2022, 05:51:06 PM »

I'd also like to add the Dominator to this line of thinking being 30 speed. Even the Onslaught speed should be reconsidered given the change in design concept for Low Tech.

I don't think the Eradicator, Manticore, and Vanguard were intended to redefine low tech, but simply expand options.  Given none of the existing low tech ships had their base speed touched, I see no indication of the doctrine of already existing ships shifting. I do see the new ships more like the exception than the rule.  Or alternatively, as a fast cruiser (Eradicator) instead of a heavy cruiser (Dominator).

Another way to look at it is ask how do the Paragon and Apogee fit in with high tech's mostly fast and maneuverable roster.  The logic you're presenting here suggests the Apogee should be somewhere between the speed of an Odyssey (70) and a Medusa/Shrike (100), not 10 speed slower than the capital.

In my personal opinion, Onslaught feels just right these days, and if anything is on the slightly strong end.  With proper officer skills, it is in fact a scary battleship capable of dishing out and taking appropriately impressive amounts of damage, especially in player hands.  And if you've pressing the advantage, enemies can't escape.  I definitely use Onslaughts to chase down Radiants who are skimming away.  At this point, I'm not convinced Onslaughts need further buffs like more base speed.  I'd need more evidence than simply stating other ships are faster moving in reverse.

Also in my personal experience, Enforcers don't feel like they are in a particularly bad spot at the moment.  The 20% across the board tanking buff they received in 0.95a , along with the skill changes in 0.95.1a, make me think their DP cost is about right these days as well.  Missile Specialization and Expanded Missile racks for example make them scary little bowling balls with 18 sabots and 18 harpoons that require cruiser tier weapons to kill in a reasonable time frame.  Also cancelable burn drive is a huge movement buff already in 0.95.1a.  No destroyer can run away from an Enforcer that wants to chase.

I'd be more convinced by a balance argument based around the ship itself, like explaining how you find it not holding up in fleet fights appropriate to it's DP cost, rather than a comparison to some other ship which has a different intended role (i.e. fast cruiser vs implied heavy destroyer).  While you may consider them comparable, I think the fact that the Enforcer costs 9 DP and the AAF Eradicator costs 20 DP has a huge affect on how I use them.  I'm willing to spend 36 DP to escort four 40 DP capitals, but I'm not going to spend 80 DP on combat cruisers escorting them, as that would leave literally nothing else in the fleet.  So I don't consider 20 DP direct fire cruisers as escort material (20 DP cruiser carriers is a different matter, as they can shoot over allies effectively and are playing two roles simultaneously).

I'd guess that in Alex's eyes, Eradicators are fast cruisers, per their description and their stats, while Enforcers are heavy destroyers, as evidenced by the 20% armor, hull, and shield buffs they got in 0.95a, as opposed to say, a speed buff to normalize them with other destroyers.  Not to mention being tankier than the 12 DP low tech destroyer offering.

Out of curiosity, have you tried modifying Enforcers locally with say, 80 or 90 speed?  How do they feel balance wise against Hammerheads and Medusa?  My guess is it'd be a bit much with their cruiser tier tankiness.  As it is, even with base 60 speed, if configured for it, an Enforcer can basically wipe any AI controlled destroyer in less than 10 seconds between flux free missiles and pursuit capability.

Actually, that reminds of the time I was testing baseline Enforcers against Fulgents with ~150 OP (essentially more than 3 story points) instead of 100 (fulgent and enforcer fights) for no hull damage back in 0.95a.  Being only 60 speed against 85 didn't seem to cause it much problems for those fights, although Xyphos did help alot.  New burn drive probably would also make pursuit easier for the AI.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 06:00:53 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Locklave

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2022, 06:50:31 AM »

I'd also like to add the Dominator to this line of thinking being 30 speed. Even the Onslaught speed should be reconsidered given the change in design concept for Low Tech.

I don't think the Eradicator, Manticore, and Vanguard were intended to redefine low tech, but simply expand options.

That entire patch was to refine Low Tech. To make it not "worst tech". The dev himself spoke about high cost high performance, as in fuel burning/high crew usage/high supplies/simple ships that get results.

I feel like he tacitly acknowledged that making all the low tech ships slower was crippling their performance, not only are they using inferior shields but those shields take more hits because the ships handle like a bathtub. "Eradicator, Manticore, and Vanguard" and including the Lasher because it was reworked into a very good low end ship.

I feel like Onslaught and Dominator being ultra slow is a throwback to before the current ship design principles were expanded.

Out of curiosity, have you tried modifying Enforcers locally with say, 80 or 90 speed?  How do they feel balance wise against Hammerheads and Medusa?  My guess is it'd be a bit much with their cruiser tier tankiness.  As it is, even with base 60 speed, if configured for it, an Enforcer can basically wipe any AI controlled destroyer in less than 10 seconds between flux free missiles and pursuit capability.

Do you understand why that is happening though? Without that speed the extra tankyness does little more then allow it to take more beatings for longer. That tankiness isn't increasing it's damage output. But it the ship is fast and tanky it can escape and recover, if it's slow any tanky then it just gets hammered to death.

Slow ships ironically make the absolute worst use of heavy armor. Slow ships also make the worse use of shields for the same reasons.

This games entire design rewards speed. Who dodged the reaper? Who retreated and recovered to reattack? Who skirted around the back and shredded the engines? Who has the most uptime and least downtime because of travel? The faster ship(s).

Those 3 ships are never doing those things. In many exchanges, not all, all that extra armor does if give you a slower death.

Anyways I'm not asking for specific number or suggesting nothing needs to be adjusted accordingly. If the Enforcer was faster it could have less armor and feel just as tanky because it could avoid having so many shield blowouts by avoiding and escaping attacks.

No one is investing heavy into armor hull mods to face Omega content. This is an example of why speed matters in general. I'm not saying that an enforcer should be doing that content, I'm saying it to highlight the importance speed plays on ships in an actual fight.
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SCC

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2022, 09:32:19 AM »

I specced into armour when I was trying to take Omegas down in 0.95a, but I gave up, because someone else on discord did it before me. Maybe it was a bad idea, maybe not.

Enforcer used to be bad, but it is now tough enough to survive well enough.

I also wouldn't say Vanguard would count as appeasing the speed meta, because it's both fast and disappointing.

Hiruma Kai

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2022, 10:23:05 AM »

That entire patch was to refine Low Tech. To make it not "worst tech". The dev himself spoke about high cost high performance, as in fuel burning/high crew usage/high supplies/simple ships that get results.

But getting results doesn't necessarily mean more speed.  At the end of the day, the question is does the entire package work?  Having every ship in the same class have only +/-10% variation is a bit limiting in terms of ship diversity.  Also the already existing ships were doing reasonably well in 0.95a, and I think the skill changes brought them up to par (nerfing shield skill options, adding more armor options).

I feel like he tacitly acknowledged that making all the low tech ships slower was crippling their performance, not only are they using inferior shields but those shields take more hits because the ships handle like a bathtub. "Eradicator, Manticore, and Vanguard" and including the Lasher because it was reworked into a very good low end ship.

What I got out of it was that Burn drive wasn't doing it's job properly, since the AI was too conservative with it, and sometimes got it wrong, putting ships out of position.  Low tech was supposed to have the ability to dictate the initiative, some of the time in pursuit.  At least for the ships with that system.  Which is what made it into the patch notes - not a general speed increase for existing ships, but an improved burn drive system.

"Alex, from A tale of two tech levels
"The key thing is that high tech is not intended to be better than low tech, just a different way of doing things. High tech has speed, good shields, and fairly inefficient (but varied!) lower-ranged weapons. Low tech is slower and more ponderous, has high armor and hull integrity, with efficient longer-ranged weapons. The dynamics you get when they face each other is that high tech ships dart in and out of engagement range, relying on shields to see them through, while low tech ships try to make them pay a price for closing in."

and

"So, one key change that supports much of what’s in the rest of this post is making Burn Drive able to be toggled off at any point in the burn. (This can be done either by pressing the system-activation key again, or by venting.)"
[close]

Do you understand why that is happening though? Without that speed the extra tankyness does little more then allow it to take more beatings for longer. That tankiness isn't increasing it's damage output. But it the ship is fast and tanky it can escape and recover, if it's slow any tanky then it just gets hammered to death.

I disagree.  Line ships do just that, because as they fall back, a fresh slow line ships step forward, allowing for that hammered ship to vent and come back.  Fast ships won't pursue into a mass of enemy ships.  The extra tankiness does in fact give the slow ship enough time to do just that.  And flux free survival (i.e. armor) means you can return fire for longer.  So while damage per second perhaps doesn't go up, damage over the lifetime of the ship does.

This games entire design rewards speed. Who dodged the reaper?  Who retreated and recovered to reattack? Who skirted around the back and shredded the engines? Who has the most uptime and least downtime because of travel? The faster ship(s).

Low tech doesn't need to dodge reapers given it's rather impressive point defense options.  If I'm personally piloting an Onslaught, I typically don't worry about missiles at all, and fear Plasma Cannons, Hellbores, and Tachyon lances more since I can't shoot them down.  And if there is a heavy missile salvo I can't shoot down, I use omni-shields on my Onslaught, so I just put it up where I need it.

I'll also point out burn drive Enforcers are faster than AAF Eradicators in terms of travel speed.  By like 25% or so.  And have no problems encircling an enemy when they have a numerical advantage.  Which they do when up against Eradicators, 2 to 1.

Those 3 ships are never doing those things. In many exchanges, not all, all that extra armor does if give you a slower death.

I just ran a low tech fleet against Doritos, and it had no problems flanking around the ships.  I lost a single Enforcer in the initial exchange.  Flanking usefully typically has more to do with numbers of ships deployed than speed of any individual ship, except possible for a player piloted one. In hindsight, I should have deployed the Legion and Onslaught first, then the enforcers to get them at the front of the line.  Overall, because of the direct fire problems, my Onslaught did very little while the Enforcers essentially wiped the Doritos.  See attached pictures.  1 personally piloted Onslaught, level 7 officer Legion, 7 level 6 officer Enforcers, 13 support doctrine Enforcers, and 2 support doctrine LP Lashers for point capping, for 240 DP worth of ships. 5 combat, 5 leadership, 2 tech, 3 industry.

No one is investing heavy into armor hull mods to face Omega content. This is an example of why speed matters in general. I'm not saying that an enforcer should be doing that content, I'm saying it to highlight the importance speed plays on ships in an actual fight.

I did a vanilla low tech run in 0.95a, and just took my standard fleet without tweaking and threw it against Doritos.  Just piloted and let the AI do it's think without orders. Took heavy losses, but mostly because it wasn't configured right.  And just slapped another one together in 0.95.1a, with a reasonable configuration, and it's losses were minimal.  And did include heavy armor on every ship.  I'm personally not seeing the issues with Enforcers in the current iteration.  They seem to work fine for me.



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Amoebka

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Re: Is the Enforcer too slow?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2022, 11:53:33 AM »

That feel when unofficered Enforcer outdamages your flagship Onslaught.
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