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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Wobbling Player AI  (Read 1717 times)

Locklave

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Wobbling Player AI
« on: February 15, 2022, 12:49:52 PM »

Slapped a shield shunt on a Onslaught, run a simulation against a Dominator with both under AI control. The player AI controlled Onslaught is flying like drunk, swinging back and forth failing to fire more then missiles and point defense. The other ship flies and fights normally.

Do the same thing again this time against another Onslaught. Again the Player controlled AI is drunk swinging wildly back and forth unable to center and fire on the enemy while the enemy AI sits head on and showers my drunk Player AI with death till it explodes.

I've seen this before with other big ships in real fights, 100% of the time when under player AI control, never seen it happen under enemy AI control. Never been able to identify or get it to repeat like this. Doctrine is set to reckless, Full assault On, Auto pilot engaged (no captain), if that matters. No mods installed and never had mods installed. Is this a bug or am I indirectly causing this somehow? Maybe a specific problem to Engage Auto pilot AI?

It reaches the engagement normally then the problem starts.

Just tested it 1v1 on a station and it tried, not for long, to wobble before getting wrecked. Does Shield Shunt alter AI behavior?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 12:56:27 PM by Locklave »
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Nimiety

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2022, 12:55:37 PM »

In my experience this is caused by AI trying to fire rear facing guns. Yes, even vulcans.
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Locklave

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2022, 12:57:59 PM »

I'm going to remove all rear facing guns and test that. If that's the case then that is a hell of an AI issue.

edit:
Good call you are right, I removed all weapon facings that couldn't get a direct line of fire forward and it stopped the wobble. That is not how it should be working.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 01:03:28 PM by Locklave »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2022, 01:03:24 PM »

More likely trying to use broadside large slots that cannot fire forward, or trying to take damage on undamaged armor cells rather than take hull damage.
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Morrokain

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2022, 01:05:09 PM »

I believe this is because the AI Onslaught and Dominator have shields to absorb some damage. Your Onslaught doesn't have shields and is required to tank all damage on its armor. When under this condition, the AI tries to distribute the armor damage across a lot of armor cells. (This is the swinging back and forth behavior you are seeing.)

Because the Onslaught doesn't have a good turn rate and relies heavily upon forward firing built-ins for damage, the armor distribution isn't ideal for this particular build in a one vs one situation. I will say I'm not sure why it wouldn't be firing its turreted weapons though since it should have plenty of flux and doesn't need it for shields. So that is a bit odd but I don't know what build you are using, etc.

Are you seeing the same thing without Shield Shunt? That would be a different story, but with that hullmod on it kind of makes sense. The real question for me is whether or not this impacts a multiple ship engagement. Can the Onslaught actually bring its weapons into the fight then and does the net armor increase make enough of a difference to offset the poorer performance in a solo duel?

Another thing you could try is to add that variant into the simulator ship list a couple of times and then test 3 Onslaughts with Shield Shunt vs 3 standard Onslaughts and see whether the impact is to the overall battle.
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Locklave

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2022, 01:07:00 PM »

There is 100% no wobble when the side and rear guns are removed, so it's not shifting for armor tanking. Maybe trying to broadside?

I wonder if it does this without the shunt.
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Nimiety

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2022, 01:07:18 PM »

I'm going to remove all rear facing guns and test that. If that's the case then that is a hell of an AI issue.

edit:
Good call you are right, I removed all weapon facings that couldn't get a direct line of fire forward and it stopped the wobble. That is not how it should be working.

Yeah its weird, and it only started happening recently update wise. I think Alex borked something.
Try reducing the aggression of the officer and put the guns back on. I never tried but maybe its caused by the reckless officer wanting all guns in range?
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Locklave

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2022, 01:08:57 PM »

I'm going to remove all rear facing guns and test that. If that's the case then that is a hell of an AI issue.

edit:
Good call you are right, I removed all weapon facings that couldn't get a direct line of fire forward and it stopped the wobble. That is not how it should be working.

Yeah its weird, and it only started happening recently update wise. I think Alex borked something.
Try reducing the aggression of the officer and put the guns back on. I never tried but maybe its caused by the reckless officer wanting all guns in range?

I need to test those things too, see if it's something specifically causing this.
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Megas

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2022, 01:13:21 PM »

What are your weapons?  It can wobble even with shields.  I have seen it most when I used Hellbores on all three heavy mounts in previous releases.

Currently, I almost always use Devastators in the sides and a kinetic in the middle, and nothing significant in the mounts up front, and I have not seen Onslaught wobble.
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Locklave

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2022, 01:22:51 PM »

Hellbore, Autocannons, Vulcans, Dual Flak. Just got it so I slapped on what they had. With rear/side guns on it still wobbles with shields.

Changed aggression to stead for doctrine, had no effect.

I'm gonna hire someone and toss them on it, I'm using support doctrine. I'm at a loss as to the cause and why specifically this problem can be so easily repeated in this case.

edit:
New captain had no impact. Only thing that stops the wobble is removing the side/rear guns. Oh it is a Fourteen Battlegroup. I shouldn't omit details that might matter.

edit 2:
Specifically removed both the hellbore side guns only but not the middle one and the wobble stops.

edit 3:
Specifically removed only one side hellbore, wobble stops. My head hurts.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 01:32:57 PM by Locklave »
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DaShiv

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2022, 01:38:42 PM »

More likely trying to use broadside large slots that cannot fire forward, or trying to take damage on undamaged armor cells rather than take hull damage.

I think this is right - it sounds like the AI is trying to fire the side Hellbores via the broadside AI, not understanding that the Onslaught turns way too slowly to make up for the fact that side larges don't reach forward.

The default AI loadouts that use Devastators mounted on the side larges don't seem to have this problem.

Edit: If the wobbling stops with one side Hellbore removed, then the wobble could be due to the AI trying to decide which side to broadside from with Hellbores mounted on both sides.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 01:41:57 PM by DaShiv »
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Salter

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2022, 01:50:05 PM »

Id mount most of your guns facing forward with PD in the rear only. Onslaught is a forward facing ship, so its guns need to face that way or it freaks out.
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Gergin

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2022, 02:18:55 PM »

Shield Shunt absolutely alters AI behavior.  I discovered a pretty game breaking bug with Shieldless Frigates running SO wherein they will not get close enough to targets to kill them.  So they'll fight well until the target gets to low hull and then they back off and just circle around until they die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY32tAxdQa0


It's not quite the same situation as you're experiencing but I guarantee it is due to not having a shield.  Get a video of the behavior and upload it and a description of the issue in the bug forums.  I think shieldless ships in general have some AI glitches at the moment and frankly, I wouldn't recommend running them.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2022, 02:35:24 PM »

I've seen that with shielded ships as well (back off a lot when enemy ship gets very low on hull and then behave very tentatively). I'm pretty sure it's the AI being afraid of death explosions.
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Thaago

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Re: Wobbling Player AI
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2022, 02:40:05 PM »

IIRC the backing off one was addressed in a bug report and Alex did some tweaking, though it happened after the last hotfix so we'll have to live with it for a while.
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