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Author Topic: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a  (Read 5219 times)

Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2022, 06:02:02 PM »

Fury maxes out at a little over 1000 dissipation. It can support more than just a HB.
Only if player min-maxes dissipation, which is not a given.  With 30 vents alone, dissipation is only 900.  Flux Regulations adds a bit more, and Ordnance Expertise might add a lot.

Furies in my fleet are likely to be used by AI without Ordnance Expertise (either no officer, or officer without Ordnance Expertise).

Fury is a bit OP starved.  After three medium weapons and 14-16 OP worth of PD (2 burst pd or 4 red pd lasers), I get about three hullmods and 20+ vents (and probably no caps).  Currently, I use Hardened Shields, ITU, and Front Shields.  I originally used Expanded Missile Racks, but abandoned it (for Hardened Shields) when Fury was too flimsy in a brawl.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2022, 11:25:31 PM »

Fury with front shields doesn't really need PD. I also s-mod any ship with an officer which helps OP a lot.
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2022, 04:23:49 AM »

Fury with front shields doesn't really need PD. I also s-mod any ship with an officer which helps OP a lot.
The PD is in the rear, and is mainly for anti-Salamander, and Front Shields without Accelerated Shields does not always deploy in time before incoming missiles reach engines.  Also, while Fury does not have the slots for it, it is nice to have PD aim forward even with front shields because I have seen Harpoon or Pilum spam overload or zap through shields, and having burst PD to zap the missiles instead is really nice on the ships that can do it.

Yes, s-mods help, but it would be nice for Fury to be good enough without them like other ships.  If anything, s-mods delay when AI Fury acts dumb in a fight.  In particular, AI Fury needs plenty of caps so it is not so quick to abandon approach, run away, and get picked off.  (Without s-mods, I may not be able to afford max vents, let alone get caps.)  For some enemies, that extra time is enough for Fury to overpower the enemy to win.  For others (like SIM Falcon), it still is not enough.  Falcon vs. Fury is like watching Hound vs. Vanguard.  AI is incompetent, and since I want Fury to be used almost entirely by AI, that is a problem.  Also, I do not want to optimize my officers for Furies because I change fleet composition frequently, and officers are much harder to respec than for the player or AI cores.

Also, I noticed the mount at the nose tip is susceptible to getting knocked out.  I have switched back from HB and two missiles to Pulser, HB, and Sabots (with Pulser at the nose and HB in synergy mount behind it) mainly to have HB not get knocked out so much by enemy fire.  I have abandoned Expanded Missile Racks (even as an s-mod) for more caps and flux, and that seems to help most short of using SO and 2 HB.
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Salter

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2022, 08:16:47 AM »

IMO thats a problem with the fury as a whole. Its a cool warship, but its not a well-designed one. At least in the hands of the AI anyways. Due to the way its mounts are layed out, it will always have issues unless they make structural/design changes to the ship itself.
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2022, 09:51:34 AM »

The silver-lining of high-tech appears to be the apogee at least. Since its fairly straight-forward with its mounts (No pun intended) you can set it up with a gunnery implants officer w. Integrated Targeting Unit & Advanced Optics and it works wonderfully.
I put plasma cannon and a large missile on Apogee, and AI does better with it than with Fury.  SIM Falcon is no match against an AI Apogee, while AI Fury wipes embarrassingly through cowardice.  Fury should not cost more DP than Apogee.

It is a shame that Apogee was removed from the high-tech pack.  Three ships are not enough.  Even low-tech has five, and midline has more.
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Vanshilar

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2022, 10:49:46 AM »

SIM Falcon is no match against an AI Apogee, while AI Fury wipes embarrassingly through cowardice.  Fury should not cost more DP than Apogee.

I'm finding the complete opposite. Apogee can't kill a SIM Falcon unless it has SO, simply because it can't get close enough; it's too slow, and the SIM Falcon both outranges it and outruns it. (Yes the Apogee can lob Squalls or Hurricanes, but the Falcon is far enough away to dodge them.) Whereas even an unofficered, un-s-modded, non-SO Fury can kill the Sim Falcon in under a minute, on autopilot. Just put in a Sabot Pod, Harpoon Pod, Pulse Laser, IR Pulse Lasers, Hardened Shields, ITU, Front Shields, max caps then remaining into vent.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 10:55:13 AM by Vanshilar »
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2022, 11:29:28 AM »

I did not use SO on Apogee.  It was basically an advancing wall of doom.  When Falcon got close enough, it got pummeled.  I tried both Locusts and Squalls, and Locusts did better because I did not need ECCM tying up OP for more flux or weapons, and Falcon did not circle-strafe away from Locusts like it did from Squalls.  Plasma cannon has more range and better efficiency than anything for medium energy weapons, and the large homing missile of whatever will do something.  And Apogee has excellent flux stats and shield.  It is a tank compared to other high-tech ships.  18 DP for Apogee is almost criminally low, or Fury too expensive at 20 DP.

My problem with AI Fury is its cowardice.  Once it decides to retreat, it takes too long for it to escape because it is not very fast at going anywhere but forward.

Aurora has an easier time escaping (because of jets), but if an ion beam zaps engines through the shields, it suffers like Fury.  So far, AI Aurora could take out Falcon, but it had more difficulty than Apogee.

P.S.  Tried the Pulse Laser loadout recommended above with AI Fury twice, but it died horribly against SIM Falcon like every other non-SO loadout I tried.

Also tried Apogee against Falcon again, and Falcon got mauled.  The thing about Falcon vs. Apogee is Falcon does not outrange Apogee enough, the range difference is too narrow for the AI Falcon to maintain when harassed by missiles.  (My Apogee had Locusts.)  What happens is Falcon drifts too close, and both ships brawl, Apogee outguns Falcon, Falcon takes damage and retreats.  Then, after it dissipates enough flux, it approaches and tries to kite at first, but eventually drifts into plasma cannon range, and yet another brawl happens.  Eventually, Falcon dies.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 11:41:48 AM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2022, 12:13:44 PM »

Maybe “does it beat/kill a falcon in a 1 on 1 isn’t the best evaluation metric”
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2022, 12:29:14 PM »

If all Fury excels at is sweeping destroyers or frigates, then it is not very good for its DP price.  I pick some other ship(s) instead.  Yes, Falcon is probably a bad matchup because it is faster, longer ranged, and has anti-shield weapons, but at least the Fury ought to close the distance and do as much damage as it can before going down instead of chicken halfway on approach and try to flee but fail and go down anyway without putting a scratch on the enemy.

Falcon is not the only enemy cruiser AI Fury has trouble against, but it is the most egregious since Falcon is cheaper than Fury, and a different cheaper competitor ship (Apogee) mauls Falcon without much problem (at least for me).

P.S.  The reason I am interested in Falcon dueling alone is because of fleet composition.  When my flagship is Ziggurat and another major ship is Onslaught or Radiant, I do not have much DP left for more ships (until I cap some points).  So far, I lean on SO Hyperions, and they are great.  I have been calling SO Hyperions micro-Radiants lately because they are very strong for their cost, with endurance their only weakness.  I am looking for ships other than Hyperion I can use.  I read great things about Fury (enough that their DP cost was raised from 15 to 20), but when I try them, they are dying sooner than other ships.  Currently, I rather take Apogee or Eradicator (either variant), maybe even Gryphon, or multiple smaller ships, over Fury.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 12:44:52 PM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2022, 01:45:29 PM »

Why does the fury have to be the ship that works in your composition? Why don’t you take an Apogee? Why is it bad that hyperions are the best ship for your fleet?
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2022, 03:34:42 PM »

Why does the fury have to be the ship that works in your composition? Why don’t you take an Apogee? Why is it bad that hyperions are the best ship for your fleet?
I want Fury to be worth its DP cost like most or all other cruisers.  If it cannot hack it against its peers while under AI control, while most of the other cruisers can kill its peers and more, then Fury is overpriced.

Currently, I am trying sim fights as a test, and if it cannot handle them, then it cannot handle the campaign.  Fleet composition is irrelevant for SIM tests.
 Maybe SIM does not honor fleet doctrine (I have Aggressive doctrine, but SIM may be locked at Steady.  I cannot tell for sure.)

Apogee is a tank ship, I have enough of those.  I want some faster ships.  Currently, I am using multiple frigates (instead of fewer bigger fast ships) because they do not die as much as bigger fast ships (or in case of Vanguard, they do not stay dead).  But I want bigger ships because I do not have Wolfpack Tactics (and I do not have the skill points to spare for Leadership) and I get sick of the PPT clock, even with Combat Endurance and (sometimes) Hardened Subsystems.

I am trying to give typical high-tech under AI control a chance, but so far, only the high-end frigates are winners.  Shrike is too big and clumsy compared to Tempest and gets slaughtered, and Fury has not performed much better once it fights something it cannot bully with superior stats alone.  Aurora is too expensive.

The problem with Hyperion is (like Ziggurat) it is ill-suited for chain-battling or multi-round combat.  If the enemy decides to fight a second round, and I have nothing else aside from hangar queens, my fleet is dead.  If I win a battle, then there is another killer fleet nearby, I need to run or else the fleet is dead too.  I should not rely primarily on hangar queens for hard fights because that can go wrong.
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Goumindong

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2022, 08:31:47 PM »

I want Fury to be worth its DP cost like most or all other cruisers.  If it cannot hack it against its peers while under AI control, while most of the other cruisers can kill its peers and more, then Fury is overpriced.

No. The Fury is overpriced if it does not do its job for an appropriate cost.

But the job you want it to do seems kind of not what the fury is designed for. You say you don't want a tank but what you seem to want most of all is for the ship to survive and have a long PPT... I.E. you want a tank. You say you want it to be fast, but no reason for what you want it to be fast to do.

The Fury is designed to bully things with its superior stats. Its a 2 Medium Energy Cruiser with 600 base dissipation... IF you want a fast ship that is to survive and harass larger ships you want a falcon. Its 14 DP and has two forward mounted medium ballistics on 75 base speed with maneuvering thrusters.

Maybe you should consider different methods of fights instead of fighting huge fights against multiple fleets? Maybe disengage with story points if you think you will lose your fleet?

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Thaago

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2022, 09:04:16 PM »

The funny thing is that I feel exactly the opposite about the Apogee and the Fury: I think the Apogee is a mediocre to poor combat ship that never has a use case in my fleets. Its speed is an absolute liability unless running in a well established cruiser and/or capital fleet, but if I'm running a fleet like that why would I take a medium firepower hybrid exploration ship? Especially now that the Champion is a thing. Its very hard to "punch up" with an Apogee, because it cannot run from the big threats that will eventually wear down its impressive shield and kill it.

Meanwhile, Fury's can deal high DPS/burst, plus nice missile power, and outrun most things that it can't overwhelm. The Falcon is probably one of its few actual counters, because it has the speed + range advantage on it (Falcons are faster than most destroyers and have cruiser range kinetics!)... buuut this is actually a white room sim counter, not a true battle counter, because Falcons usually lack burst firepower to actually finish a Fury. If I see a Fury being kited by one, I just assign some frigates or fighters as support and then the issue is solved (because the Fury doesn't actually die or even take heavy hull damage, it just is stalled for a bit).
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Vanshilar

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2022, 02:02:40 AM »

My problem with AI Fury is its cowardice.  Once it decides to retreat, it takes too long for it to escape because it is not very fast at going anywhere but forward.

That's a strange argument to make when comparing the Fury and the Apogee, considering the Fury has a base speed of 90 while the Apogee has a base speed of 60. The Apogee could put on Unstable Injector and still be much slower.

Aurora has an easier time escaping (because of jets), but if an ion beam zaps engines through the shields, it suffers like Fury.  So far, AI Aurora could take out Falcon, but it had more difficulty than Apogee.

That applies equally to the Apogee. It makes no sense to say the Aurora has more difficulty taking out a target than the Apogee, considering how much more speed, weapon mounts, and flux it has, so this almost certainly comes down to a bad loadout being used.

P.S.  Tried the Pulse Laser loadout recommended above with AI Fury twice, but it died horribly against SIM Falcon like every other non-SO loadout I tried.

Here's a video of AI Fury using the weapons above taking out the SIM Falcon in 38 seconds, followed by an AI Apogee using a Plasma Cannon and Locust doing the same in...449 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gktB9kIkCoM

No officers, no s-mods, no Safety Overrides.

The Apogee is simply too slow. The SIM Falcon sometimes goes in to attack, but takes armor/hull damage only if it happened to be in cooldown on jets so it couldn't move away fast enough (i.e. such as if it used its jets to move in). Once it's taken some hull damage, though, it goes into coward mode, always backing up, and the Apogee simply can't catch up to finish it off. So the Apogee basically ends up chasing it all around the map until the SIM Falcon makes a mistake. Whereas the Fury simply keeps advancing, and its weapons are enough to overpower the Falcon.

If we for example look at fighting [REDACTED] fleets, consider the base speeds of the different ships:

140 Lumen
130 Glimmer
100 Shrike
100 Medusa
90 Fury
85 Fulgent
80 Aurora
70 Odyssey
60 Apogee
60 Scintilla
60 Brilliant
40 Radiant

The Fury and the Aurora (since it has jets) can back away from all ships except the frigates. The only ship the Apogee can back away from is the Radiant, and that's assuming the Radiant doesn't chase after it with phase skimmer. So the Apogee has to really make sure it can kill something (and not get surrounded) since it can't back off; it commits to the fight, like a Low Tech ship, unless it has SO. In fact the Apogee is about the only non-capital High-Tech ship that can't back off easily unless it has SO; even the Odyssey at 70 base speed can back off from most of the ships, and it can easily pummel the ships it can't back off from unless it gets surrounded.

The Apogee has a huge flux pool, which makes it a really good tank. But its low speed makes it difficult to go on the offensive unless it has SO, and you have to go on the offensive to win battles quickly and efficiently. With SO it's very much a beast because it's fast and is a good tank; but it suffers from not enough mounts to make use of all that flux. (Although, since it's underfluxed, this arguably makes it more dangerous since it can absorb a lot of soft flux damage and keep firing.)

For [REDACTED] farming I ended up going with the Apogee for a completely different reason: AI Fury will unabashedly plasma burn into hulks, making themselves flameout, usually at high speed flying into the enemy fleet and thus dying, without me being able to do anything about it. Assuming that doesn't happen, SO Fury generally beats SO Apogee in damage, since a Cryoblaster is going to do roughly as much damage as a Plasma Cannon (at much cheaper OP), so it's really just down to Large Missile + Small Missile vs Medium Missile + Medium Synergy in terms of weapon mounts. (Both have the same 2 Small Energies.) The Fury is also faster so it can go from hotspot to hotspot faster, increasing its overall damage, although the Apogee has more flux capacity so it doesn't need to back off as often.
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SCC

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2022, 10:15:45 AM »

I used Fury in 0.95a and it seemed plenty fine. Aurora's presence in my fleet, on the other hand, was rather difficult to justify. It seemed no better than Champion and the Hardened Shields nerf didn't help it one bit.
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