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Author Topic: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a  (Read 3996 times)

Grievous69

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Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« on: February 15, 2022, 09:06:55 AM »

Naturally, since my last playthrough was full on low tech with Industry and Combat skills, this one is mostly high tech ships and a heavy investment in Tech skills (with again some in Combat). My flagship currently is an Aurora and I also got one that I gave to AI. Needless to say the reason I'm making this post is because it feels underwhelming for that high cost of 30 DP. AI Aurora dies every second battle even though it has a comfortable build along with a level 5 officer (in short: HB, Phase lance, AM blaster, 2 Sabot pods and 4 Burst PDs). You could even argue that's weak for a 30 DP ship but let's ignore that for now. So even with its superior speed and fast ship system, it somehow gets into trouble and suicides. Sure it can easily chase frigates and destroyers but I have other ships for that (also fighters exist). When it finally meets a similar opponent it just derps out and barely does anything except dance around in its final moments.

Yeah you could make it a missile ship and it would do better until it runs out, but then that's a bloody expensive missile cruiser lol, we have Gryphon for that. I saw Nia's suggestion on Twitter to reduce its DP, but imo we have enough cruisers in that range. I'd rather see it buffed in some way (except speed) so that it can compare to real options. As it stands right now it's a no brainer to just get an Odyssey instead of this for flagship, same burn speed.
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2022, 09:25:17 AM »

I would like to see Aurora to get some of the following...
* More max flux (Eagle just got some).  It originally had 15000 max flux.
* Default 360 front shield.
* Return of the large missile mount.

Speaking of high-tech ships underwhelming for their cost, Fury at 20 DP is a disappointment too.  No matter what I try, all it is good for is punching down.  If I try to send it against something of its size, either it dies or runs out of missiles after one opponent (then it cannot win flux wars anymore).  Fury needs either a slight DP decrease (maybe 18 to match Apogee) or 5 to 10 more OP to fit more stuff.  Currently, I rather have Eradicator instead of Fury.  If I had to choose between Apogee or Fury, I probably take an Apogee.  If I need something fast, I probably grab a Shrike or high-tech frigate that is not a Wolf.  It is bad when SIM Falcon can take out Fury reliably because AI Fury cannot deal with being outranged after it gets some hard flux.

Yeah you could make it a missile ship and it would do better until it runs out, but then that's a bloody expensive missile cruiser lol, we have Gryphon for that. I saw Nia's suggestion on Twitter to reduce its DP, but imo we have enough cruisers in that range. I'd rather see it buffed in some way (except speed) so that it can compare to real options. As it stands right now it's a no brainer to just get an Odyssey instead of this for flagship, same burn speed.
Aurora was in the game before Gryphon and Champion were added.

Aurora got medium synergy because Gryphon was outdone by it (similar mount layout, but Aurora had better stats).

Then, Champion superficially resembles Aurora back when Aurora had both large missile and High Energy Focus before 0.8a.  (Aurora got medium synergy at 0.72, but still had HEF instead of Jets, and it was truly a joke ship during that release.)

Also, we have Fury in the 20 DP range, and it needs help too.  It suffers the same problems as Aurora.

As for making Aurora a missile ship, that is a problem with all typical high-tech ships with relatively high speed and no ballistics.  They all need to be either missileships of some sort or SO berserkers with overwhelming flux stats, or else they get picked off by anything with efficient and/or longer ranged kinetics.  Unfortunately, the AI is too cowardly to use high-tech ships well enough in duels.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 09:47:14 AM by Megas »
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Challanger

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2022, 10:16:56 AM »

Aurora is trash by now.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2022, 11:00:34 AM »

Aurora flagship is my favorite cruiser flagship and I think the players ability to utilize the mobility system makes it easily worth the DP.

It's a bit harder to justify using AI aurora, I've tried a fair bit and it does struggle to live up to its DP, although I haven't had major issues with frequent deaths. I would never give a phase lance to the AI, it is so brain dead with burst beams. I would definitely go sabots + small HE missiles + 1-2 AMB + pulse laser/ir pulse laser/ion pulser. Maybe one HB if you have the flux stats to spare, but I wouldn't make sacrifices to fit it. I also have been finding ion pulsers/ion damage to be critical for aggressive ships. Knocking enemy weapons offline makes things so much safer.

Aurora also is probably the ship that benefits most from Omega weapons and becomes very strong when kitted out with those.
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Thaago

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2022, 11:47:48 AM »

I've had decent successes with AI aurora just with classic Sabot + torpedoes, HB + ion pulser (though I do want to try AMBs on them, they are quite good). I'm not sure if that build is worth 30, but its strong. Fury at 20 is still a strong ship. Not much else to say about it, its just powerful, fast, survivable, and brings lots of missiles.
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2022, 01:07:25 PM »

Aurora flagship is my favorite cruiser flagship and I think the players ability to utilize the mobility system makes it easily worth the DP.

It's a bit harder to justify using AI aurora, I've tried a fair bit and it does struggle to live up to its DP, although I haven't had major issues with frequent deaths. I would never give a phase lance to the AI, it is so brain dead with burst beams. I would definitely go sabots + small HE missiles + 1-2 AMB + pulse laser/ir pulse laser/ion pulser. Maybe one HB if you have the flux stats to spare, but I wouldn't make sacrifices to fit it. I also have been finding ion pulsers/ion damage to be critical for aggressive ships. Knocking enemy weapons offline makes things so much safer.

Aurora also is probably the ship that benefits most from Omega weapons and becomes very strong when kitted out with those.
Sure, player can do alright with it, but I am more concerned with AI performance since I probably pilot something else.  For Aurora, I use Sabots and Reapers for missiles, and two HBs in turrets.

I've had decent successes with AI aurora just with classic Sabot + torpedoes, HB + ion pulser (though I do want to try AMBs on them, they are quite good). I'm not sure if that build is worth 30, but its strong. Fury at 20 is still a strong ship. Not much else to say about it, its just powerful, fast, survivable, and brings lots of missiles.
My problem with Aurora and Fury is their cowardice.  Once its flux gets high enough, all it cares about is running away, and if it cannot, it takes damage it should not (because it keeps trying to run away but failing).

Quote
Fury at 20 is still a strong ship. Not much else to say about it, its just powerful, fast, survivable, and brings lots of missiles.
That has not been my experience.  It is a coward that lets enemies pick it off, or it gets its weapons knocked out and it cannot fight back easily.  The only time I had unqualified success with it is when it could punch down at small fry, which my point capping frigates can already deal with.  But when I stick it in a battle with larger ships, it dies more than other ships.

I have tried Ion Pulser + HB + Sabots.  HB + Reapers + Sabots.  2x Pulse Lasers and Sabots.  SO + 2x HB and Sabots.  Probably had a bit more success with SO and 2 HBs, which I do not want to rely on.  I have better results with Eradicator or Dominator, although at least Fury is not a total joke like Harbinger is.

I use Aggressive fleet doctrine, but I read that simulator does not honor it if I do not use officers, so it makes it hard to test loadouts, and if I do use an officer, I cannot tell if the build is good or if the officer carried it.

So far, Fury seems mediocre for its price.
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Grievous69

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2022, 12:55:05 AM »

So again, same thing, the only good thing people can say about it for 2 years is that it's a good flagship. Well there's 20 other good flagships I can pilot, what does this one even bring... I feel like I did more work last run in my Eradicator which is 10 whole points cheaper. Sure Aurora is super fast but at some point I just need raw power and defense. Champion is just a straight up better ship, why bother with fancy flanking maneuvers when it can just obliterate the enemy's frontline. And if I want a fast flanker, both Fury and Odyssey are much better options efficiency wise (although I agree with Megas, Fury could use 5 or so more OP).

You know what, forget the return of the large missile mount, lots of ships have that now. Give it a large energy turret so we can finally have a high tech ship with one that isn't Apogee. Honestly since Fury was introduced, these 2 ships overlap a bit too much. Both are a spam of small and medium energy, synergy mounts with decent shields and great speed. Shields are identical, playstyle is nearly identical, only difference is that Aurora can go backwards with the ship system.

@intrinsic_parity
Yeah I'm also not a huge fan how AI uses Phase lances but it works well as anti fighter and it cracks armour easily. The reason I'm not using much EMP weapons is because I want my fleet to quickly take out opponents, not play with them until they go boom. I'm not paying 30 DP for a fat Omen. And I mean Omega weapons are great on pretty much all high tech ships, don't get what does that have to do with the topic. Once you get to that point in the game you don't even care for ship losses. I actually tried a [REDACTED] loadout on it once in a custom mission, it's crazy good yeah, but that's so late in the game it's irrelevant to the discussion.
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2022, 05:30:37 AM »

Until player can farm Omega weapons like he can cores, I do not even consider them for ship performance because player may not get what he wants, or not enough for all of his ships.

Large energy would be nice, although Aurora had large missile in the past.  If I use two heavy blasters, I doubt I use other weapons (aside burst pd) because of flux budget.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2022, 11:47:42 AM »

Sure Aurora is super fast but at some point I just need raw power and defense. Champion is just a straight up better ship, why bother with fancy flanking maneuvers when it can just obliterate the enemy's frontline. And if I want a fast flanker, both Fury and Odyssey are much better options efficiency wise (although I agree with Megas, Fury could use 5 or so more OP).
Aurora has significantly better flux stats than champion and the same shield efficiency, so I would argue it has better defenses shield-wise. Champion cannot catch fast ships and can't run away either. If you are fighting low tech fleets that might be less important, but if you are fighting remnants that might be critical e.g. the difference between getting run over by a hoard of remnant destroyers/cruisers and picking them off one by one. I haven't had too much trouble finishing things off with aurora, but I also like to run AMBs and reapers so I think my loadouts are more aimed at doing that.

I also think speed is invaluable for influencing the battle as the player. It lets you save your allies much more reliably, and engage the enemies you want to. I hate piloting slow ships and watching my allies die while I can't do anything about it. I personally would not pilot a champion or eradicator without SO because they are too slow. The AI can fly forward and fire all guns just fine, it's the fast ships where the player can maximize their impact on the fight. That's my philosophy anyway.

There's no universe where fury is a better flagship than aurora IMO. It just has less output in pretty much every way. Odyssey is obviously a better flagship, but hard to find. I've gotten bored of piloting odyssey anyway, so I generally look for other options these days.

Shields are identical, playstyle is nearly identical, only difference is that Aurora can go backwards with the ship system.
This is like saying that dominator and onslaught are redundant because they both have similar mount types, ships systems and play styles. In both cases one is bigger, has more/better mounts and stats and generally does more, but also costs more.

Yeah I'm also not a huge fan how AI uses Phase lances but it works well as anti fighter and it cracks armour easily.
On an aurora, I'm not sure it would even be that good for anti fighter. The ship turns very quickly, so I feel it will spend a lot time missing since the AI does not attempt to maintain a stable platform or keep it on target when firing. In my experience, it will mostly just raise your flux levels for no benefit in AI hands, and it will very rarely actually hit armor where it is useful. It also has kinda low raw DPS making it pretty meh for hull damage IMO.

The reason I'm not using much EMP weapons is because I want my fleet to quickly take out opponents, not play with them until they go boom.
Ion pulser is a solid burst damage weapon for anti-shield even ignoring ion damage. It's definitely not just utility. 1000 burst DPS is nothing to sneeze at and it fits very nicely into flux budgets IMO. Also consider that once the enemy weapons are offline, you can spend all your flux on dealing damage instead of having to spend some on shields to defend yourself. In my experience, Aurora performs better with an ion pulser.

And I mean Omega weapons are great on pretty much all high tech ships, don't get what does that have to do with the topic. Once you get to that point in the game you don't even care for ship losses. I actually tried a [REDACTED] loadout on it once in a custom mission, it's crazy good yeah, but that's so late in the game it's irrelevant to the discussion.
You can get a few super early from the alpha site cache. I always check the cache as soon as possible, it's just a few remnant destroyers and frigates iirc so very easy to clear. If you hit 2x mini pulser + cryo blaster, you have a super-powered aurora immediately (and there are plenty of other decent combos since almost every small and medium omega weapon is good on aurora). Obviously not something you will do every game, but something that can happen reasonably often. I also actually think a jacked omega aurora is a viable late game flagship that can get good value compared to other options, even if it is not the optimal choice.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not against an aurora buff, I just think it's not completely useless right now. IMO it's mostly just overshadowed by ships like odyssey and doom as flagships, and the progression is much too fast for a mid game flagship niche to really exist.
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Salter

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2022, 03:25:30 PM »

Speaking of high-tech ships underwhelming for their cost, Fury at 20 DP is a disappointment too.  No matter what I try, all it is good for is punching down.  If I try to send it against something of its size, either it dies or runs out of missiles after one opponent (then it cannot win flux wars anymore).  Fury needs either a slight DP decrease (maybe 18 to match Apogee) or 5 to 10 more OP to fit more stuff.  Currently, I rather have Eradicator instead of Fury.  If I had to choose between Apogee or Fury, I probably take an Apogee.  If I need something fast, I probably grab a Shrike or high-tech frigate that is not a Wolf.  It is bad when SIM Falcon can take out Fury reliably because AI Fury cannot deal with being outranged after it gets some hard flux.

Ive had luck with fury as a High Scatter Amplifier dual phase lance build under player control. Flanked by tactical lasers and some angling, it practically sinks anything its size in one shot, but its not worth the DP yeah. About 11/12 at most, since its supposed to be a dire wolf, but neither the wolf or the shrike cost more than 5 & 8 DP respectively. Less if you do support doctrine to get the DP reduction when they dont have officers.

You really cant justify the fury at 20 DP when it doesnt even have a large weapon mount. Its an underwhelming little cruiser.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2022, 03:51:53 PM »

I think fury needs a heavy blaster to actually use its dissipation. Something like HB + ion pulser + sabot, or HB + 2x ir pulse laser + sabot + reaper/harpoon. Maybe double pulse laser could work too, but I feel like that's worse overall. Honestly, I think I like investing more heavily into missiles the most.
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Salter

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2022, 07:56:28 PM »

Ive never had a problem with a fury overfluxing. In a wolf pack fleet, I use it as a bruiser to clean up wounded enemies who are overwhelmed by the pack.

It only has issues with flux in sustained engagements or having to face down some serious firepower. Plasma burn makes darting out of enemy reticles pretty easy if you know what you are doing. In the hands of an AI, it tries to play it straight however and predictably pays for it.
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Megas

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2022, 05:11:13 AM »

It only has issues with flux in sustained engagements or having to face down some serious firepower. Plasma burn makes darting out of enemy reticles pretty easy if you know what you are doing. In the hands of an AI, it tries to play it straight however and predictably pays for it.
That is the thing.  I want to use Aurora and Fury primarily under AI control, since I usually pilot Onslaught, Paragon, or Ziggurat as my flagship by the time I can acquire Aurora and Fury easily.

The DP cost of Aurora is prohibitive for its performance as an AI ship.  Fury, less so, but when I try it under AI control, it dies more than other ships in non-trivial fights.  It seems like I am better off with almost any other combat ship, either another cruiser or multiple smaller ships.

With Fury, it has dissipation to support Heavy Blaster and not much else, unless Safety Override.  If it gets knocked out, which is about as easy as small mounts on Dominator and Onslaught getting knocked out, then Fury has almost no firepower, except maybe missiles.  When I put Fury against another cruiser, it loses the flux war unless it uses missiles.  Kind of like Wolf against nearly any other frigate.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2022, 02:30:11 PM »

Fury maxes out at a little over 1000 dissipation. It can support more than just a HB.
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Salter

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Re: Revert Aurora nerfs from 0.9a
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2022, 04:07:26 PM »

The silver-lining of high-tech appears to be the apogee at least. Since its fairly straight-forward with its mounts (No pun intended) you can set it up with a gunnery implants officer w. Integrated Targeting Unit & Advanced Optics and it works wonderfully.
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