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Author Topic: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test  (Read 2473 times)

Ibudoto

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SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« on: January 21, 2022, 10:14:25 PM »

https://youtu.be/CIayZxLGmkU

Hyperion with SO and officer last around 13 or 14 minute while Hyperion without SO and officer last around 9 or 10 miunte. If your ship instantly crash it's because you didn't used officer not because you used SO. Both ships used hardened subsystem, without hardened system it probably last around 5 minute without SO. Which means you can get hilarious result: SO ship last 3 times longer than a ship without SO.

No enemy presence buff prevent PPT and probably CR from degrading if you can't see enemy ship, since actual battle isn't just orbiting enemy ship for 14 minute straight it can actually last longer.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 10:16:12 PM by Ibudoto »
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Kriby

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2022, 01:10:46 AM »

Pretty funny!

Maybe hardened subsystems + SO should have an either or relationship. With the risk of overdoing it, maybe SO should really crash CR more quickly post PPT?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2022, 09:47:08 AM »

It would be a more reasonable comparison if you also included full CR/PPT bonuses without SO.

Also, the ship becomes much less effective as CR drops (a 20% swing in damage taken, damage dealt and maneuverability from 100% CR to 50% CR), and once it drops below 30% CR, the ships is basically dead in the water, suffering critical malfunctions (including shields, weapons and engines going offline), so I think saying it will last 15 minutes is very misleading.
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itBeABruhMoment

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2022, 02:18:17 PM »

the ships is basically dead in the water, suffering critical malfunctions (including shields, weapons and engines going offline)
You see a useless piece of space junk. I see a 10k max hp, guided reaper torpedo.
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Locklave

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2022, 04:10:59 AM »

Actual effective fighting time is what people are talking about with SO PPT.

You are timing an element no one is measuring by, because that information is useless in regards to a real fight. It can float around being useless for 15 minutes+. So what?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2022, 07:11:22 AM »

the ships is basically dead in the water, suffering critical malfunctions (including shields, weapons and engines going offline)
You see a useless piece of space junk. I see a 10k max hp, guided reaper torpedo.
All I see is supplies swirling down the drain.
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Ibudoto

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2022, 07:56:45 PM »

It would be a more reasonable comparison if you also included full CR/PPT bonuses without SO.

Also, the ship becomes much less effective as CR drops (a 20% swing in damage taken, damage dealt and maneuverability from 100% CR to 50% CR), and once it drops below 30% CR, the ships is basically dead in the water, suffering critical malfunctions (including shields, weapons and engines going offline), so I think saying it will last 15 minutes is very misleading.

The ship lose 10% damage taken/dealt, not 20%(+10% to 0%). Beside that still last 10 minute with 50%, that's enough to last 500+ DP battle. There's also officer skill reduce malfunctions if you want them to last longer.

Actual effective fighting time is what people are talking about with SO PPT.

You are timing an element no one is measuring by, because that information is useless in regards to a real fight. It can float around being useless for 15 minutes+. So what?
By the time it reaches 15 minute battle is already ended. SO is basically permanent time dilation, with SO even heavy cruisers fly faster than fighters and they generate twice more flux which is translated to double fire power. Yeah useless ships like 280 speed with 3k+ DPS.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 08:27:11 PM by Ibudoto »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2022, 11:35:06 PM »

The ship lose 10% damage taken/dealt, not 20%(+10% to 0%).
I was slightly wrong, the stats go from +10% -> 0% from 100 CR to 70 CR and then 0% -> -10% from 50 CR down to 0 CR. So a full 20% swing but across 100->0 CR. https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Combat_readiness

Personally, I think you really should retreat at 40% CR at the latest and never go below 20% because at 20% you start to loose weapons/engines/shields permanently for the combat (won't come back online no matter what) so you really need to be retreated before that point or you're very likely to lose the ship. 40% is when you can start to lose engines temporarily which can prevent you from retreating until you get to sub 20% where you just die. You're also starting to have negative damage dealt and increased damage taken below 50% CR which makes it more dangerous. Not to mention you're flushing supplies down the toilet the entire time.

By my quick math using the numbers from the wiki, it should take 8 min for a ship with hardened subsystems + combat endurance to drop from 100% to 40% CR, so that's a more realistic value if you want your ships to stay alive IMO.


SO is basically permanent time dilation, with SO even heavy cruisers fly faster than fighters and they generate twice more flux which is translated to double fire power. Yeah useless ships like 280 speed with 3k+ DPS.
While this is a bit of hyperbole (dominator with SO is not faster than any fighters), if the argument is just that SO is OP, then yeah it obviously is. I stopped using it because it makes combat very boring, and I've made threads calling for nerfs before.

I still think that burning through all your CR is very undesirable since it massively increases supply cost for the fight and also can be pretty risky for losing ships.
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Ibudoto

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2022, 06:11:48 AM »

The ship lose 10% damage taken/dealt, not 20%(+10% to 0%).
I was slightly wrong, the stats go from +10% -> 0% from 100 CR to 70 CR and then 0% -> -10% from 50 CR down to 0 CR. So a full 20% swing but across 100->0 CR. https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Combat_readiness

Personally, I think you really should retreat at 40% CR at the latest and never go below 20% because at 20% you start to loose weapons/engines/shields permanently for the combat (won't come back online no matter what) so you really need to be retreated before that point or you're very likely to lose the ship. 40% is when you can start to lose engines temporarily which can prevent you from retreating until you get to sub 20% where you just die. You're also starting to have negative damage dealt and increased damage taken below 50% CR which makes it more dangerous. Not to mention you're flushing supplies down the toilet the entire time.

By my quick math using the numbers from the wiki, it should take 8 min for a ship with hardened subsystems + combat endurance to drop from 100% to 40% CR, so that's a more realistic value if you want your ships to stay alive IMO.


SO is basically permanent time dilation, with SO even heavy cruisers fly faster than fighters and they generate twice more flux which is translated to double fire power. Yeah useless ships like 280 speed with 3k+ DPS.
While this is a bit of hyperbole (dominator with SO is not faster than any fighters), if the argument is just that SO is OP, then yeah it obviously is. I stopped using it because it makes combat very boring, and I've made threads calling for nerfs before.

I still think that burning through all your CR is very undesirable since it massively increases supply cost for the fight and also can be pretty risky for losing ships.
The engine never go completely flame out until it reach below 10% CR. It lose around 15% speed randomly when it hit 35% but they get repaired fairly quick.

Engine going completely flame out might be risky but it seems never happens until around below 10%. It also seems like officered ships get less malfunctions even without the skill but not sure if is this a thing.

The point is that if A ship fight for 10 minute and B ship 20 minute, but both ships deal same damage, then both ships contributed same or A ship fought much better since most part of battle already ended in 10 minute and rest is just clean up. Beside that, I think pretty much 90% battles don't last 15 minute anyway.

I think Dominator can reach around 180 speed with Unstable injector + SO and Coordinated movement + fighter uplink + Helmsmanship. Activate Burn Drive and it can be as fast as interceptors. Not sure how practical it is but still, you can make your giant brick out speed sport cars.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 06:15:14 AM by Ibudoto »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2022, 07:37:40 AM »

I think Dominator can reach around 180 speed with Unstable injector + SO and Coordinated movement + fighter uplink + Helmsmanship. Activate Burn Drive and it can be as fast as interceptors. Not sure how practical it is but still, you can make your giant brick out speed sport cars.

Just so you know, percentage bonuses are normally added together, and not multiplied, with flat bonuses added in at the end after percentage ones.  Percentage penalties generally multiply however.  Essentially, positives get put together in the worst way for the ship, and penalties also get put together in the worst way for the ship generally.  There are a few exception though, but none associated with speed as far as I know.

You can try out an Unstable Injector + SO, along with a full +20% Coordinated manuevers + Elite Helmsmanship + 100% CR + the 0-flux speed boost, and a basic Dominator caps out at 132 speed (on the display).  Burn Drive does bump that up to 332 in a straight line, which is Talon tier speed.   The shields being down during it, and no turning, means you can't prevent chip damage, and faster ships with a maneuverability system typically will move out of the way.

Most of that is coming from the 0-flux boost to be honest, and an identical Dominator without SO can hit 112 while it's flux is zero.

The fundamental problem with that is the Dominator's range shrinks to 450 which is less than frigate tier weapon range, and is on average slower than most frigates.  Assuming the other side also has an officer in a frigate with Helmsmanship and has Coordinated Manuevers, even a slow Lasher is hitting speed 156, potentially with range 800 ballistics.  Not saying SO Dominators are necessarily bad, but they are still not going after frigates and fast destroyers very well, and need to still be escorted by faster ships or have local fighter superiority.  The AI has issues with being out ranged and out sped.

Also, in case it was unclear due to it's description, Fighter Uplink affects only fighters, not ships.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2022, 08:33:02 AM »

40% and 20% are the thresholds where malfunctions can start to happen, but they happen randomly so you likely won't see them happen right at those thresholds. Those are still the critical thresholds though.
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Draba

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2022, 08:36:31 AM »

The fundamental problem with that is the Dominator's range shrinks to 450 which is less than frigate tier weapon range, and is on average slower than most frigates.  Assuming the other side also has an officer in a frigate with Helmsmanship and has Coordinated Manuevers, even a slow Lasher is hitting speed 156, potentially with range 800 ballistics.  Not saying SO Dominators are necessarily bad, but they are still not going after frigates and fast destroyers very well, and need to still be escorted by faster ships or have local fighter superiority.  The AI has issues with being out ranged and out sped.
And the AI has massive problems with hardpoints, lots of time wasted turning back and forth between targets.
Since Dominator will always turn like a brick, has plenty of armor to drops shields and with ordnance expertise enough flux to fire weapons it's one of the few ships where SO isn't straight up cheating.
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SapphireSage

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2022, 05:32:35 PM »

Hyperion with SO and officer last around 13 or 14 minute while Hyperion without SO and officer last around 9 or 10 minute.

Isn't it a bit disingenuous to compound the SO with an Officer and then test w/o SO by also excluding the officer? Especially when you make use of the fact that, while SO greatly affects PPT, it does nothing with regards to CR reduction rate?
It would be no surprise to anyone that the time would be a fair bit longer without SO but with an officer than with SO and officer largely on the basis of PPT. Which would mean more time with CR bonuses in effect.

Testing out a drop from 100% CR to 90% CR with a Wolf with differing reduction rate buffs are listed below:
  • With no changes to CR reduction rate: ~38 seconds (380 secs. total)
  • Same drop with only Combat Endurance(Same magnitude as Hardened Subsystem, just with less PPT added): ~51 seconds (510 secs. total)
  • Same drop with both Combat Endurance and Hardened Subsystem: ~68 seconds (680 secs. total)

If you take the above times for a regular Wolf, it takes about 3.8 seconds to drop 1% and therefore 380 seconds(6 mins, 20 secs.) to go from 100 to 0. The difference then between one combat readiness buff(Such as HS) and both buffs(adding officer) for 10% is 17 seconds, which translates to an otherwise immutable 170 seconds(close to 3 minutes) for a 100% drop in CR.

Using the Hyperion's PPT with the bonuses and hullmods provided leads to the following differences in time:
  • Base: 120 secs.
  • Hardened Subsystems: 180 secs. (+60)
  • HS, Wolfpack Tactics, and Combat Endurance: 300 secs. (+180)
  • HS, WT, CE, and Safety Overrides: 99 (-21)

Taking both of the above lists, some total times are listed below:
  • Base: 120 + 380 = 500 (8 mins. 20 secs.)
  • HS: 180 + 510 = 690 (11 mins. 30 secs.)
  • Officer: 240 + 510 = 750 (12 mins. 30 secs.)
  • HS + Officer: 300 + 680 = 980 (16 mins. 20 secs.)
  • HS + Officer + SO: 99 + 680 = 779 (12 mins. 59 secs.)

The difference in PPT between your two examples, HS only and HS + Officer + SO = ~81 secs. So you wind up losing 81 secs to gain 170 seconds in CR time, or by putting an officer on alongside your SO to take advantage of unmodified CR reduction bonuses, you've added 89 seconds (~1.5 mins.) to your total time. There are a couple points I want to bring up here with regards to this claim:
  • You've needed around 20 OP (15 is HS is built-in) in order to build SO with HS onto your ship, that said SO is comically strong for its OP cost so whatever ,sure.
  • You can get around the same amount of time with just an officer and all the bonuses they confer, only a greater percentage of that time is with PPT. That is the ship will deal 10% more damage, take 10% less(Combined makes them very strong in the flux war, remember dissipation matters for shots fired, but not those taken on shields), move 10% faster, and have better autofiring for intercepting missiles/fighters and gunning down faster, dodgier ships all while not adding any additional logistical strain.
  • The times are so close due to the combination of the Hyperion's low PPT and the PPT buffs being percentage based. Any ships with greater PPT will see greater returns from WolfPack Tactics(Frigate/Destroyer only) and Hardened Subsystems and greater punishment from SO's PPT reduction as PPT will become a greater percentage of its total operating time than CR reduction.
  • Honestly, the Hyperion is probably one of the best ships to take advantage of SO not affecting CR reduction rate as its recovery cost is very low compared to the amount of CR recovered. Deploying it may take 15 supplies, but that's to recover a whole 40% CR. Put it another way, that's 0.375 supplies/CR or 2.7% CR/supply. This means its actually incredibly cheap to run your Hyperion ragged provided you don't lose it.
  • The total times listed above are purely paper times. Ships should absolutely be retreated before they hit 40% CR as by that point they're getting hit by CR penalties and at risk of malfunctioning. This reduces the total times via CR reduction in practice.
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Ibudoto

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2022, 07:21:52 PM »

I think you guys are overrating CR penalty at 40%. I regularly deploy ships at 20~40% CR and they still wrack most things. It also add some risk which spice it up.

Quote
Isn't it a bit disingenuous to compound the SO with an Officer and then test w/o SO by also excluding the officer?

Realistically, why would you put officer in a Frigate that doesn't even have SO? They take too long to engage to target and they don't have enough flux to use their weapon. Major benefit of officer is that they provide damage buff, so what's the point of having a officer in a ship that can't even fire 90% of time. They also benefit from Wolfpack and has longer PPT so putting officer just for CR make it too fair for the ship without SO.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 07:30:12 PM by Ibudoto »
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TaLaR

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Re: SO's PPT degrade is exaggerated by community. SO frigate test
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2022, 08:48:04 PM »

The AI has issues with being out ranged and out sped.

This, for one, isn't completely an AI issue. A much slower ship can only close the distance by exploiting the faster ship's range management mistakes (assuming the enemy is faster in total, including system effects). An AI smart enough to exploit these, wouldn't make them on faster ship's side in the first place.
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