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Author Topic: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change  (Read 3210 times)

DaShiv

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2022, 11:08:31 PM »

I like the DP pool idea as well, since it also helps curb officer limit bypass via mercenaries and AI cores. If we're talking purely frigates, then 20-30 DP is plenty since most frigates have such low DP to begin with.

However, destroyers also benefit from Wolfpack Tactics and they take up quite a bit more DP than the average frigate, and a handful of destroyers would completely hog the DP pool away from frigates. Separate DP pools seems like a rather clunky workaround - there should be a better way to make frigates and destroyers play nice with the DP pool.
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Vanshilar

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2022, 01:17:38 AM »

However, destroyers also benefit from Wolfpack Tactics and they take up quite a bit more DP than the average frigate, and a handful of destroyers would completely hog the DP pool away from frigates. Separate DP pools seems like a rather clunky workaround - there should be a better way to make frigates and destroyers play nice with the DP pool.

Since destroyers only get half the benefit, then it could just be that destroyer DP is halved for the purposes of the DP pool for Wolfpack Tactics.

But yeah DP pool makes sense for Wolfpack Tactics, i.e. just like many other skills, the point is to encourage its use, but limit the benefit from being too large.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2022, 04:05:55 AM »

How about making "Wolfpack Tactics" work like a wolf pack. The Alpha wolf directs the pack and increases its deadliness as a whole.

Thus with that skill, for every officer in a Frigate the damage of ALL frigates is increased by 6%, and for every officer in a Destroyer the damage of ALL destroyers is increased by 3%.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 04:07:27 AM by Tartiflette »
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Megas

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2022, 05:34:09 AM »

As long as Support Doctrine is a high-tier skill (which needs four Leadership skills to unlock), it would be nice if Wolfpack Tactics did not rely on officers for anything, to be more friendly with Support Doctrine.  To get the most bonus from Support Doctrine, officers are discouraged, and there should be more than four other Leadership skills that do not rely on officers to work (and the carrier skills still want officers to get the most bonus).
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2022, 09:41:19 AM »

How about making "Wolfpack Tactics" work like a wolf pack. The Alpha wolf directs the pack and increases its deadliness as a whole.

Thus with that skill, for every officer in a Frigate the damage of ALL frigates is increased by 6%, and for every officer in a Destroyer the damage of ALL destroyers is increased by 3%.
I think this idea, although those numbers would probably have to be adjusted or capped. Presumably unofficered frigates would benefit from both this damage boost and support doctrine, which would be a pretty interesting combo.
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Morrokain

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2022, 10:24:28 AM »

How about making "Wolfpack Tactics" work like a wolf pack. The Alpha wolf directs the pack and increases its deadliness as a whole.

Thus with that skill, for every officer in a Frigate the damage of ALL frigates is increased by 6%, and for every officer in a Destroyer the damage of ALL destroyers is increased by 3%.

I think this is a neat concept. I may play around with implementing something similar to this for my TC actually.

My question would be whether or not the addition of a DP pool limitation would also be appealing in order to discourage players from putting all of their officers in frigates or destroyers for the maximum boost possible.

I suppose a hard cap to the bonus that is less than the number of possible officers could have the same effect. Would a limit really even be necessary though? Hmm..
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2022, 11:54:38 AM »

Would a limit really even be necessary though? Hmm..
10 officers would be a 60% damage boost... that's a lot. Even just 5 for 30% would be 50% more than the current skill, and also spread across all unofficered frigates as well. I find myself already sometimes using 4 or 5 frigate officers just because of the DP cap on battles makes it hard to fit 10 officers when you have a few capital ships.
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Morrokain

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2022, 12:15:35 PM »

10 officers would be a 60% damage boost... that's a lot. Even just 5 for 30% would be 50% more than the current skill, and also spread across all unofficered frigates as well. I find myself already sometimes using 4 or 5 frigate officers just because of the DP cap on battles makes it hard to fit 10 officers when you have a few capital ships.

The boost per officer can be adjusted though. Put it at 2% and now its only 20% across all frigates which is about what we have now only all frigates instead of only 10. In that case taking two officers away from frigates and putting them on cruisers only reduces the bonus by a relatively small amount, but even still I'd imagine that players might feel pressured to keep all 10 officers in frigates for a full bonus unless officered cruisers are that much better, etc. So the DP limit or bonus cap is more designed to ease the player away from feeling forced to go all in with the skill rather than reduce the power of skill itself if that makes sense. The limit might make the bonus able to be as powerful as 6% if the cap is only, say, a 20% total bonus as an example.

Obviously numbers can be adjusted overall to hit a sweet spot, but I think I've gotten the general idea across anyway.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2022, 12:27:16 PM »

I was just arguing that a cap/limit would be necessary to avoid the skill being either overpowered or excessively niche, so I think we agree with one another.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2022, 01:23:03 PM »

One could look at this from the point of view of % bonus per DP.  Working under the assumption all ships are correctly balanced for their DP (and if not, we advocate for that to be true) then skills like Crew Training and Tactical drills can be described as providing a 240*5% = 1200% per DP damage pool, that then gets spread out over all ships.

In the current Wolfpack Tactics design, assuming you grab the 10 officer skill and grab all Hyperions, it's not too hard to have 150 DP worth of Hyperions (and a 60 DP Radiant and 30 DP player cruiser, for example).  In that case Wolfpack Tactics is providing 20*10*15 = 3000% per DP damage pool.  Admittedly, a more modest 4 Hyperions deployment is the point at which you reach break even with Tactical Drills in terms of damage output.  Below that, you're likely better off with Tactical Drills assuming you deploy 240 DP each fight and don't care about the PPT bonus.

In Thaago's proposal, were considering a 120% per DP pool per officer, but only to that ship.  Which is a bit rough since that break even with Tactical Drills is at 10 officers assigned.

The 6% per officer in a frigate, applied to all frigates, starts off weak  6% to one 15 DP ship is a 90% per DP pool, compared to Thaago's 120% for 1 ship, or the current 300% for 1 Hyperion.  On the other hand, if you go all in, you end up with 60% to 150 worth of ships (10 Hyperion), for a 900% per DP bonus (9000% total) which as noted is too strong. Even capping the bonus to 20%, and still applying to all frigates (officered and unofficered) would lead to 20*240=4800% pool, 4 times stronger than Tactical Drills and arguably more bonus than Crew Training, all focused in damage.

A DP pool by itself, while applying to only officered frigates makes it so you're incentivized to just put in the minimum number of officered frigates to fill the pool, i.e. use only Hyperions.  A 60 DP pool with a +30% bonus, for example (1800% pool), just means you'll likely have 4 Hyperions and no other frigates.

You could try something like a scaling DP limit that applies to all frigates/destroyers, both officered and unofficered.  Let's say the bonus is +30%, and applies to all combat frigates and destroyers. We'll also say the DP pool starts at 6 DP.  For every officer assigned to a frigate or destroyer, the pool increases by 6 DP, for 180% per DP bonus per officer.

Assuming 10 officers and 1 main character, that limits the max DP pool to 72 DP with a 30% bonus, or 2160% pool, roughly 80% more than Tactical drills, at the expense of having no officers in cruisers or capitals.  Break even point is around 6.6 officers in frigates. Numbers probably need to be tweaked, but you get the idea.  You could also exclude AI cores from providing the DP increase, arguing they can't coordinate with the human officers as well, but since they take orders, have the bonus split over them.

This kind of scaling is easier to communicate than Thaago's proposal, since all frigates get the exact same bonus, so it's the same kind of display as Tactical Drills - it just updates as you move officers around.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2022, 01:45:05 PM »

It's kinda odd to talk about % damage pools when you are taking percentages of different ships damage outputs. Not every percent is equal, particularly if some ships have other stacked damage bonuses already.
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Thaago

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PM »

How about making "Wolfpack Tactics" work like a wolf pack. The Alpha wolf directs the pack and increases its deadliness as a whole.

Thus with that skill, for every officer in a Frigate the damage of ALL frigates is increased by 6%, and for every officer in a Destroyer the damage of ALL destroyers is increased by 3%.

I think this is a very neat idea and I agree with the discussion that came after it: some sort of reasonable upper limit would be good to stop abuse and its a much easier concept to display UI wise than a per ship, DP dependent scaling. Would keeping the current 20/10 be out of line? Unofficered ships have at most a 10% damage boost at present (from CR), so between the size restrictions and lacking other offensive skills, I don't think the unofficered ships will be overpowered or edge out officers.

Re: % damage pools
Thats an interesting analysis - I think I agree with intrinsic_parity that its not quite the whole story just because, even if the DP is fairly good as a measure of overall balance, how offensively oriented a ship is with its DP can vary considerably. I think it does show though that my original proposal (while also being too complicated) isn't a large enough boost.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2022, 01:42:56 AM »

I don't think there would that huge an issue of "exploits" by having an uncapped boost. After all even a frigate dealing +60% damage is still a frigate. It would hardly swing a battle like an officer on a capital would, and you'd need to have all 10 officers assigned to frigates to get there. Even if the fleet has 28 frigates (plus an Atlas and a Prometheus for logistic) that's less than 280 DP worth of ships that will start to break down after 4 minutes, a far cry from big Capital fleets. Early game though, getting a little boost could help a lot.

But if that's a concern, maybe the bonus could be double on the frigate itself, and halved on the others:
Frigates with an officer get +6% damage output. Every other frigate gets +3% damage per officer in a frigate.
You currently have 4 officers assigned to a frigate. +18% damage for frigates with an officer, +12% damage for frigates without one.

Another solution would be to give smaller bonuses to different stats, like +2% damage output, +2% shield efficiency, -2% damage to armor and hull.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 01:51:44 AM by Tartiflette »
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Amoebka

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2022, 08:12:16 AM »

"A hyperion with cruiser-level flux/shield/weapon stats dealing +60% damage is still just a frigate."
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Tartiflette

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2022, 08:13:53 AM »

Finding many of them might be tricky. Also, wouldn't that mean the problem is with the one outlier frigate?
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