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Author Topic: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change  (Read 3142 times)

Thaago

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Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« on: January 17, 2022, 07:16:47 PM »

Currently Wolfpack Tactics gives a large boost to having officers in frigates, and a smaller but welcome boost to officers in destroyers. However, because the boost is the same magnitude for every frigate (destroyer), it pushes for only using officers on the most powerful, higher DP, frigates. Wolfpack Tactics isn't the only force pushing in this direction - just the fact that there are limited officers means that its best to use them on more powerful ships - but it is a significant contributing factor. This is especially true when it comes to the Hyperion with its 15DP which greatly distorts the utility of using wolfpack tactics on anything smaller (other than automated ships of course which bring their own officers). Even for people who don't like using Hyperions, wolfpack tactics frigates are almost invariably Scarabs, Tempests, Afflictors, or other high DP frigates. While I don't think this is a really bad problem, I do think the game would be better if there was some incentive to use a wider range of frigates later in the game, if for variety's sake if nothing else.

So, a proposed solution: Let Wolfpack Tactics have a higher base damage boost, but also make it scale by the DP of the ship its based on. I think that a 30% bonus up to 4DP, then scaling after that, would work nicely for both frigates and destroyers (though only applying when fighting larger ships, as present). The scaling would be the same as it is for other skills with DP limits: bonus = min(maxBonus, maxBonus*breakpoint/value), or in this case 30%*4/DP for any ship 4DP or greater. A quick breakdown of ships:

Cerberus/Lasher - 4DP - 30% bonus. A nice boost for LP players!
Wolf/Brawler - 5DP - 24% bonus - a little more than now.
Omen/Vanguard - 6DP - 20% - same as now
Tempest/Scarab - 8DP - 15% - a little less
Hyperion - 15DP - 8% - a lot less, but its still applying vs destroyers which no other ship at this DP range gets, and its an officer in a strong 15DP ship, so I don't think this makes Hyperions obsolete: it just gives the cheaper ships a little bit more room to breathe. This is an additive bonus, so the ships are still getting CR/Targeting/Weapon Drills/Energy Weapon mastery, so its going to be more like 143% vs 150% total damage for Hyperions and Scarabs/Tempests respectively.

For destroyers, only applying vs cruiser and caps, would be:
Shrike - 8DP - 15% - a boost for a lighter destroyer that acts more like a heavy frigate
Hammerhead - 10DP - 12%
Medusa - 12DP - 10%, same as now.

There could also be a separate scaling for destroyers like there is now, though I think the 30%/4DP threshold works pretty well for them.
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Alex

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2022, 07:46:55 PM »

Hmm. You know, I'd considered the same thing! With very similar numbers, even, and the particular point of it benefitting the Hyperion less and the Shrike more.

Where it ran into problems for me was how to convey this succinctly to the player. And, in particular, how to let them know what the values would be for any particular ship - there doesn't seem to be any ready-made place in the UI to stick that information. I suppose the skill tooltip could show you the bonus for your own flagship, at least, and you could switch around to other ships to get a feel for the bonuses if you really wanted to? I'll make a note to revisit this, but further thoughts very much welcome!
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Thaago

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2022, 07:56:03 PM »

That is true, there is a bit of a UI lack for this. Having some UI with total damage boost (along with total range boost showing on installed weapon's stat cards) in the refit screen could do the trick? Needing UI is always a lot more work than not though.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2022, 08:08:52 PM »

I like Thaago's suggestion as well.

Perhaps it might be worthwhile including a general info block on the refit screen itself that informs the player of all fleet wide character skills which currently affect it, and what adding or removing a ship might do.  Maybe a hover over next to or under the officer picture?

As it stands right now, there's some very nice tool tips under the High Resolution Sensor and Salvage Rig hullmods that tell you what adding or removing another ship of that type does.

Let's say you've got 280 worth of combat ships, and you're looking at a Hyperion. So the block when hovered over might show:

Crew Training:  All ships are gaining +13% maximum CR.  Removing this ship would change the bonus to 14%.  Adding another would change it to 12%

Wolfpack Tactics:  This ship is gaining 60 seconds of peak performance time.  This ship is gaining a +8% bonus to damage due to it's DP cost.

Flux Regulation: This ship is gaining +9% additional flux dissipation and capacity.  Removing this ship would change it to +9%.  Adding another would change it to +8%.

Alternatively, if it didn't have an officer, and you had Support Doctrine, it would replace the Wolfpack tactics line with:

Support Doctrine:  This ship's DP cost is reduced to 12 from 15.  The ship is benefiting from non-elite Combat Endurance, Helmsmanship, and Damage Control.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 08:13:34 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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TaLaR

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2022, 08:39:15 PM »

This is overall just a nerf, with small early game benefit. In late game I'm not going to use officered Lashers or Shrikes, etc. If I'm using AI frigates or destroyers, I'm using only top tier ones.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2022, 08:58:48 PM »

I agree with TaLar, the main issue with low DP frigates is that they are just too squishy for late game, it's not an issue of damage output, or at least not enough of one that 5-10% extra damage would tip the scales. Little frigates like lasher just don't have enough hull or capacity to survive cruiser/capital firepower, and you're not going to invest the story points, or build officers for them if you're not going to use them long term. The high end frigates are just on the edge of being survivable enough due to a combination of very good shields, mobility systems, and defensive officer skills. They really don't output crazy outsized amounts of damage in my experience. Maybe hyperion is a weird edge case, but I have stopped using it anyway due to CR being annoying to deal with.

Maybe destroyers could use a little something extra, I haven't experimented enough with them yet.
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Haresus

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2022, 01:46:48 AM »

Something like what Thaago is suggesting would be very welcome. I want to use Wolfpack Tactics, but the Hyperion is just a really good frigate for this skill and I feel compelled to ignore the other ships in favour of giving what is effectively a light cruiser in disguise 20% more damage.

I'd honestly be fine with just making the Hyperion into one big exception that only gets 10% more damage, maybe with the Shrike as a second exception with 20% damage, but that is perhaps not a very elegant solution and wouldn't get the full benefit of Thaago's suggestion.
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Megas

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 07:33:18 AM »

If the problem with low DP frigates is they are squishy, then boost their defenses, or give them the benefits of Rugged Construction.  If they will die, then make death less painful or painless.
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SethMK

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2022, 08:25:01 PM »

I love using Wolfpack Tactics along with support Doctrine but I have to wonder why does Wolfpack Tactics require your officers to be in the ships to get any effect while the carrier skills work for all hangars with ships getting a bigger bonus for having it be flagship or an officer?
Why not do the same for Wolfpack Tactics. Say adjust it to be like 15% damage for frigates and 7.5% for destroyers with ships having you or an officer getting a 50% boost which would change them to being close to current values?
Could also up the numbers a bit if your going to also scale it on total DP for military frigates and destroyers but I don't think that part is necessary since right now we can just go 11 destroyers and/or frigates and then fill out rest of fleet with gamma core ai ships.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 09:19:34 PM »

I love using Wolfpack Tactics along with support Doctrine but I have to wonder why does Wolfpack Tactics require your officers to be in the ships to get any effect while the carrier skills work for all hangars with ships getting a bigger bonus for having it be flagship or an officer?
Why not do the same for Wolfpack Tactics. Say adjust it to be like 15% damage for frigates and 7.5% for destroyers with ships having you or an officer getting a 50% boost which would change them to being close to current values?
Could also up the numbers a bit if your going to also scale it on total DP for military frigates and destroyers but I don't think that part is necessary since right now we can just go 11 destroyers and/or frigates and then fill out rest of fleet with gamma core ai ships.
This makes a lot more sense to me than doing some weird DP dependent bonus. It doesn't require any officer or story point investment to get some value out of the skill, which is much more practical IMO.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 09:23:37 PM »

I think the assumption is ships are nominally close to their DP value in terms of effectiveness added to a fleet.  In an ideal world, frigates are worth their DP, or if they're not, you buff or nerf them until they fall into the right benefit to the fleet.  So a skill specifically just buffing frigates in general is possibly not so interesting under that assumption.  Why frigates in that case and not cruisers?  If they are in fact worth their value, you should already see them included in fleets. 

Given the AI's has more difficulty when outnumbered or flanked, coupled with advantages in late game gained from capturing points early in a fight, many frigates are likely worth their DP, in a matchup that ignores skills.

However, if ships are all worth their DP and officers are percentage based buffs on top of a ship's value, that means you'll always want to put your officers into your most expensive ships first.  Which generally is capitals, followed by cruisers.  A 30% increase on 20 DP is a much better investment than a 30% increase on a 4 DP investment.

Wolfpack tactics is intended to help compensate this a bit and create more varied fleets.  Ones where you might actually choose to put officers in lower DP ships, since you're getting closer to the same benefit.  So now you've got like a 50% increase on a 8 DP investment instead of a 30% increase on a 20 DP investment.  So making Wolfpack tactics also apply to unofficered frigates is somewhat missing the initial objective, namely spreading officers around, as opposed to generally improving all frigates.  If frigates need improvements to compete, they should be buffed in their raw capability, not have a skill patching it up.

Carriers are in a different boat because they scale faster with numbers than frigates or most ships in general.  Fighters (and missiles) can't collide, and can shoot through each other, and thus nothing is preventing a critical density of them coming together and just overwhelming one ship at a time.  Frigates still bump into each other, can't shoot through each other, and have short range, resulting in a smaller enveloping circle.  Thus the carrier bonus scales to give a fixed benefit that doesn't grow with fleet size, so it doesn't help that non-linear growth as much.

The issue Thaago and Alex are trying to address is Hyperions are nominally worth 15 DP, which is more than some Cruisers.  They already have a high DP value, and assuming it is accurate, that is a fairly good reason to stick officers in them by itself, without much extra push from Wolfpack tactics.  It's quite reasonable to imagine officers being placed in Hyperions even if Wolfpack tactics didn't exist, which means a flat application to all frigates is going to make Hyperions much better officer value than nearly any other ship in it's DP range.  More so than Furies or Eagles, for example.

I guess one general question to ask is, are Hyperions actually worth 15 DP by themselves, in a comparison that doesn't include Wolfpack tactics.  This is definitely a nerf to Hyperions, but the question one needs to ask then, are Hyperions with Wolfpack tactics too good and need said nerf?  Or do they need to be buffed to be actually worth 15 DP?  Similar questions should be answered for the other frigates.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 09:41:51 PM »

Maybe the hyperion shouldn't be a frigate if this is such a huge issue... I don't think it makes much sense to add all this complexity to a skill because one outlier ship doesn't quite work.
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SethMK

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2022, 10:37:14 PM »

That could be an option to hardcode something for the Hyperion but Wolfpack Tactics can be picked up for the early game and thus needs to be balanced around being used with early game ships and not just endgame frigates and destroyers. could always base the % on the base dp of the ship regardless of if it is frigate or destroyer. Say 6 or less dp full % what ever that is then 7 to 10 is some other % etc... And have the Hyperion and destroyers of dp 15+ be even lower % boost. Would keep things simple.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 02:34:53 PM by SethMK »
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Jaghaimo

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2022, 11:22:42 AM »

What if Wolfpack Tactics worked off DP pool on top of requiring an officer? As it is you want your officers in the strongest frigates, like Hyperion. If there was a DP cap then 8/10 Hyperion would no longer get the full bonus.

The ideal solution would fit elegantly into the game. I feel like both per DP bonus and exceptionalizing Hyperion do not.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 11:25:17 AM by Jaghaimo »
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Megas

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Re: Wolfpack Tactics: Small Problem and Proposed Change
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2022, 06:10:40 AM »

Suggestion:  Use DP pool like with carriers and phase ships, without the officers.  Why?  Support Doctrine.  There are only four skills that do not rely on officers in Leadership (Gunnery Drills, Crew Training, both carrier skills).  Would be nice if there was a fifth Leadership skill not reliant on officers.

P.S.  With Support Doctrine adding +15% (via Combat Endurance), if the player gets Hull Restoration and two s-mods per ship, then Crew Training is kind of wasted because the fleet will be at 95% CR already without CT, and CT will give only +5% for such a fleet.  (I am considering a Support Doctrine and Hull Restoration combo for more casual play experience.)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 07:38:49 AM by Megas »
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