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Author Topic: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod  (Read 2716 times)

Jaghaimo

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Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« on: January 17, 2022, 06:48:49 AM »

Gemini got a civ-grade hullmod in 0.95a to use assault/escort packages. Those are now gone, but the hullmod stayed. Should that change be reverted as well? Its stats are of a Combat Freighter, not a civilian ship.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 09:38:13 AM by Jaghaimo »
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Alex

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2022, 08:36:16 AM »

Ah, that's a good point - let me make a note.
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Jaghaimo

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2022, 09:40:50 AM »

There's also some discussion going on regarding Gemini being civ-hull in General: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23821.0

Having it civ-hull allows:

  • Not contribute to combat ships DP limits (fleet wide buff)
  • Enjoy bonuses from  Bulk Transport
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Alex

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2022, 10:33:42 AM »

Hmm, burn 11 Gemini, while fun, seems a little off. And if it *is* indeed a combat freighter, it really seems like it should contribute to combat ship points. I think the right way to go is probably to remove civgrade and make it better in combat.
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SethMK

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2022, 01:23:13 PM »

Any hints on how the Gemini will be made better beyond removing civilian hull which mostly just helps reduce sensor profile.
Better flux management? Better shields, armor, or hull? More ordinance points to not feel so limited in what you can put on the Gemini?
I doubt it will get changes to it's weapon mounts or their arcs...and I doubt you'll be considering changing out it's ship system.
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Alex

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2022, 02:43:10 PM »

I don't actually know - haven't really thought about it too much. Thoughts on the subject are very much welcome :)
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Megas

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2022, 03:07:31 PM »

In older releases (when Mauler did 250 dmg/sec), lack of OP was the biggest annoyance.  I either left the missile mount empty or mounted a Salamander.  I have not tried Gemini lately, so I do not have a good feel with it in modern releases.
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Candesce

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2022, 03:10:05 PM »

I don't actually know - haven't really thought about it too much. Thoughts on the subject are very much welcome :)
I spent a bunch of time playing around with the Gemini in a wolfpack fleet, because being a burn 9 civvie ship let a militarized Gemini hit burn 10.

My conclusion was that a top speed of 50 left it just too slow, and it didn't really have the OP to get away with running Safety Overrides. It's not a pure carrier like the Condor, it needs to be able to reach where the fights are happening. The Mule is both baseline faster and has Maneuvering Jets, and I'm assuming that's around what the Gemini should be, right?

I think just giving it a chunk more top speed might be enough to make it interesting. Combined with losing Civilian Hull, 10 more OP might make a SO Gemini interesting, too.
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Thaago

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2022, 03:47:54 PM »

I would be careful of overbuffing just because the Gemini is very nearly more powerful than the Condor, and before the reserve deployment nerf it was more powerful. In every way except flight deck number and armor it is strikingly superior, so its hard to know what exactly a buff would be.

Currently it has a very generous amount of OP (75 vs 45) for its single bay + 3 medium weapons, poor flux but also low flux costs (2700/170) and enough OP to actually put point in here, a good shield (.8 ), its on the slow end but still faster than a condor (50 vs 40), has decent weapons/weapon placement, a good system, and very good logistical stats compared to combat ships.

One way to go is maybe give the Gemini 2 bays, but reduce its OP count, and then give the Condor a significant buff: essentially let the Gemini be the "cheap" carrier/logistics hybrid that has to sacrifice something to mount fighters other than interceptors, and let the Condor become a proper combat ship. For the Condor, a 1.0 shield and 30 more OP would be a good start but it could probably absorb a decent amount more buffs and still not be overpowered.

[Edit] I left this out somehow bu Hiruma Kai reminded me: also change the Gemini's ship system, as 2 bays + RD is a bit much. I was a big fan of the Gemini's old machine gun drones way back when that was a system, though I know those have been deprecated in favor of modular fighters. Maybe bay + machine gun drones if 2 bays is too much?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 05:07:55 PM by Thaago »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2022, 06:17:54 PM »

I'd personally lean even more into the fact it is a long range support hybrid ship, if I were to change the Gemini.

Given the Gemini has only 1 bay, it eliminates it from the running in fighter spam scenarios.  The existence of Converted Hangar Bay means any destroyer can have a similar, if not quite as strong, fighter contingent.  Certainly an Enforcer with converted hangar bay and a Xyphos wing still has 73 OP left (compared to a Gemini and Xyphos with 57 OP left), and is a much stronger base chassis than the Gemini, for the same deployment cost.

As for the hybrid nature of the ship, I think Alex is moving towards simply having ships be worth their deployment cost, which is the way the Venture went, and the Apogee is currently sitting at (or beyond depending on who you talk to).  Right now, the Venture is more of a cargo ship than the Gemini is (14 DP and 3 fuel/ly for 600 cargo and 180 fuel, versus 9 DP and 2 fuel/ly for 250 cargo and 70 fuel).  Which is consistent with the removal of the civilian tag.  Venture feels worth while dropping into battle at 14 DP, at least for short ones where it's missiles don't run out.

So if I were to try tweaking a Gemini into a 9 DP tier destroyer hull, I'd probably try the following:
1) It's weapon count is pretty low for a destroyer.  I'd add 2 small composite mounts on the front of the saucer section, roughly parallel with the missile mount, with 180 degree arcs, pointing 45 degrees away from forward.  I'd add 10 more OP because 2 more small mounts were added.

This provides flexibility to put point defense either in the smalls or mediums.  Since the Gemini's armor is so low, it's in danger of going down to an interceptor strike.  If you don't put Mining Pods or Xyphos in the fighter bay, it can't rely on it's fighters for PD either, so simply more mounts that allow for different PD solutions seems good.  It adds swarmers and vulcans to the already possible double flak.

Alternatively, a medium and two small missiles makes it reasonable to throw expanded missile racks on, and utilize missile pressure to keep flanking frigates away.

2) Bump the flux dissipation up to 200 from 170, to also help the fact it has 2 more mounts.  Bump flux capacity up to 3200.  That puts it roughly at 80% of a Hammerhead's flux stats, and about on par with an Enforcer (which is a low tech ship compared to the Gemini's midline doctrine).

3) Bump the speed to 60.  It's not going to win any races, but at least it can keep up with things like Eagles and Champions and perhaps be set to escort on them, making it a reasonable midline support addition.  Trying to get a slow carrier to escort a speedy cruiser can be painful to watch.

So, 85 OP, 1 Medium Missile, 2 Medium Ballistics, 2 small composites, 1 fighter bay.  200 flux dissipation, 3200 flux capacity shield, 250 armor, 4500 hull, 60 speed.  The same 250 cargo/70 fuel capacity.

It is more on the glass cannon end of things, but supported properly can dish out destroyer tier damage, and between fighters, missiles and ballistics, can imagine a variety of viable loadouts.  Although, obviously would need some testing, as I could be underestimating those changes.  But certainly I want it to be able to, say, take on a non-SO Shrike.
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SethMK

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2022, 06:45:06 PM »

I'd personally lean even more into the fact it is a long range support hybrid ship, if I were to change the Gemini.

Given the Gemini has only 1 bay, it eliminates it from the running in fighter spam scenarios.  The existence of Converted Hangar Bay means any destroyer can have a similar, if not quite as strong, fighter contingent.  Certainly an Enforcer with converted hangar bay and a Xyphos wing still has 73 OP left (compared to a Gemini and Xyphos with 57 OP left), and is a much stronger base chassis than the Gemini, for the same deployment cost.

As for the hybrid nature of the ship, I think Alex is moving towards simply having ships be worth their deployment cost, which is the way the Venture went, and the Apogee is currently sitting at (or beyond depending on who you talk to).  Right now, the Venture is more of a cargo ship than the Gemini is (14 DP and 3 fuel/ly for 600 cargo and 180 fuel, versus 9 DP and 2 fuel/ly for 250 cargo and 70 fuel).  Which is consistent with the removal of the civilian tag.  Venture feels worth while dropping into battle at 14 DP, at least for short ones where it's missiles don't run out.

So if I were to try tweaking a Gemini into a 9 DP tier destroyer hull, I'd probably try the following:
1) It's weapon count is pretty low for a destroyer.  I'd add 2 small composite mounts on the front of the saucer section, roughly parallel with the missile mount, with 180 degree arcs, pointing 45 degrees away from forward.  I'd add 10 more OP because 2 more small mounts were added.

This provides flexibility to put point defense either in the smalls or mediums.  Since the Gemini's armor is so low, it's in danger of going down to an interceptor strike.  If you don't put Mining Pods or Xyphos in the fighter bay, it can't rely on it's fighters for PD either, so simply more mounts that allow for different PD solutions seems good.  It adds swarmers and vulcans to the already possible double flak.

Alternatively, a medium and two small missiles makes it reasonable to throw expanded missile racks on, and utilize missile pressure to keep flanking frigates away.

2) Bump the flux dissipation up to 200 from 170, to also help the fact it has 2 more mounts.  Bump flux capacity up to 3200.  That puts it roughly at 80% of a Hammerhead's flux stats, and about on par with an Enforcer (which is a low tech ship compared to the Gemini's midline doctrine).

3) Bump the speed to 60.  It's not going to win any races, but at least it can keep up with things like Eagles and Champions and perhaps be set to escort on them, making it a reasonable midline support addition.  Trying to get a slow carrier to escort a speedy cruiser can be painful to watch.

So, 85 OP, 1 Medium Missile, 2 Medium Ballistics, 2 small composites, 1 fighter bay.  200 flux dissipation, 3200 flux capacity shield, 250 armor, 4500 hull, 60 speed.  The same 250 cargo/70 fuel capacity.

It is more on the glass cannon end of things, but supported properly can dish out destroyer tier damage, and between fighters, missiles and ballistics, can imagine a variety of viable loadouts.  Although, obviously would need some testing, as I could be underestimating those changes.  But certainly I want it to be able to, say, take on a non-SO Shrike.

I agree with all of this but I'd also replace the ship system. Perhaps bring back the machine gun drones as a temporary auxillary support wing that won't hamper your resupply rate for you single hangar craft bay. A set of disposable drones that won't affect fighter replacement armed with machine guns or vulcans could be useful even if with durations and system cooldowns they are only active at most 40% to 60% of the time, or whatever % turns out to be balanced. Gives the ship something unique that blends into the focus on being versatile. If given this system I don't think the ship would need extra weapon mounts but I wouldn't say no to them, but the additional OP is definitely needed as I can pop converted hangar on other destroyers and toss in a Xyphos and still have more OP than just putting a Xyphos on a Gemini. Heck I do use that combination right now on some of my destroyers and I've not been tempted to use a Gemini instead since the ship feels so OP starved by comparison.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 01:13:06 AM by SethMK »
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Gothars

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2022, 03:35:56 PM »

Making the missile mount large could be a lot of fun.
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SethMK

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2022, 06:51:19 PM »

Making the missile mount large could be a lot of fun.
That could be interesting but possibly overpowered with the hangar bay. But it would turn the ship into the missile counterpart to Sunder and Manticore.
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2022, 01:40:17 PM »

 NYET! GEMINI IS FINE!

 I actually like the perks of a beefy civilian ship with a base burn of 14 (after skills and hullmods).
 High burn is wonderful for exploration and Pirate hunting, and it gives the Gemini a nice little "Millennium Falcon" niche.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 02:05:01 PM by Rusty Edge »
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Rojnaz

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Re: Gemini still has civ-grade hullmod
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2022, 09:44:45 PM »

It may sound dumb but I'd prefer both Gemini and Mule(Which has comparable stats and not civ-grade hull) with civ-grade Hulls...
Militarized sub-systems are only 10 OP and they can get 10 burn without skill investment, the "10 armor for the damage reduction calculation only" is useful for hull-tanking, the only real problem of Militarized Gemini is the high skeleton crew requirement.
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