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Author Topic: Vanguard is terrible  (Read 17542 times)

Timid

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #75 on: February 17, 2022, 09:26:43 AM »

A thing I noticed is if the enemy fleet has anything with High Intensity Laser and points it at Vanguards, they drop like flies.  HIL is too effective against all of the armor in the world.  If the fleet does not have such a can opener, Vanguard sometimes dies a bit more often than other frigates, sometimes not.
Yeah, it's too bad HIL is the anti-shieldless ship. I see ships burn driving toward a ship with HIL to lose half its hull integrity.

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #76 on: February 17, 2022, 10:36:00 AM »

Tac lance and plasma cannon are also very bad for shieldless ships. Basically any enemy fleet with lots of large energy slots is going to have a field day with shieldless ships.
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Supraluminal

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #77 on: February 17, 2022, 12:58:44 PM »

To a large extent, yeah. I'm bumping into this as I'm trying to fight endgame enemies with a primarily low-tech fleet built around Shield Shunt and Polarized Armor. I'm still able to win in most cases, but I feel like the difficulty differential between normal enemies (pirates, intel bounties, etc.) and top-tier Remnant/Dorito fights is significantly higher than it is when I play with a more standard, shield-centric fleet. My armor-tank fleet is decently lethal (love being able to dedicate all flux to weapons) and handles the smaller fry just fine, including mid-tier Remnants. However, when going up against Radiants packing 3+ Tach Lances in fleets with full Alpha Core officers, things get dicey.

Relying on armor makes fights into a race - you need to overwhelm your opponent before you get ground down - but it's far more difficult to come out ahead when you're facing those anti-armor large energy weapons mounted on ships that rival your own for durability. Low tech's lack of mobility hurts here too, since the very toughest enemies are also extremely adept at darting away to vent in safety and my ability to pursue them is limited. If I can't get some hits in while they vent, they come back completely fresh while my ships are still carved up from the first exchange. Then I'm well behind in the race.

So ultimately it seems to me that dedicated armor tanking is a bit of a win-more mechanic. It makes it easier to defeat weaker enemies, and harder to take on the most powerful. Kind of a bummer, because I'm otherwise enjoying building and running this fleet. It's a nice change of pace in combat and I like how the AI behaves with shieldless ships. It also turns ship construction into a very different kind of puzzle, where you're balancing a different set of considerations, using familiar tools in new ways. Hullmods that used to feel marginal are now high-priority, point defense becomes a much bigger consideration, and so on. Plus it turns out that it's really fun to be able to shoot all your guns all the time.

On the Vanguard in particular: Naturally I tried using it in my fleet since it fits the theme, but I actually gave up on it pretty early on, even before running into the endgame threats. I guess it's not surprising that the smaller the ship is, the less viable it is as an armor tank. I also think it suffers a lot from having a Damper Field and no shields (AI is braindead about this), and the expense of recovering it takes away a lot of the appeal of Rugged Construction - both of which people have discussed already in this thread.

On top of that, I also find the Vanguard hard to outfit in a satisfactory way. It has way more mounts than flux capacity, so you want to put missiles in the composite mounts. Those are also the only hardpoints though, so if you want to use any high-recoil ballistics you're stuck putting them in turrets instead. And it's OP-hungry for all the usual armor-tank hullmods, but also badly wants the missile mods. In the end I just couldn't find a build for it that felt right.

It's a fun idea, and I'd like to have a frigate to round out my armor-themed fleet, but I don't think the Vanguard is there yet. It needs some more work to feel like a good pick, especially out of the early/mid game.
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Draba

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #78 on: February 17, 2022, 03:02:28 PM »

Tac lance and plasma cannon are also very bad for shieldless ships. Basically any enemy fleet with lots of large energy slots is going to have a field day with shieldless ships.
Same for Heph, and to a lesser extent Mjolnir. Hellbore also hurts a lot, but DPS is low and Vanguard doesn't get hit by it that often.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2022, 06:05:38 AM »

On top of that, I also find the Vanguard hard to outfit in a satisfactory way. It has way more mounts than flux capacity, so you want to put missiles in the composite mounts. Those are also the only hardpoints though, so if you want to use any high-recoil ballistics you're stuck putting them in turrets instead. And it's OP-hungry for all the usual armor-tank hullmods, but also badly wants the missile mods. In the end I just couldn't find a build for it that felt right.
Nailed it!

That's why I like my IPDAI gimmick build. Missile mounts are either an expensive commitment requiring dedicated hullmods and officers, or an OP+flux saving measure with some torpedos or sabots. Vanguard can't afford the first and doesn't really need the second if you're stacking flux-efficient guns. The long range point defense coverage is well worth it - have you seen a high CR frigate flawlessly shoot down salamanders with a light mortar? It's quite the sight.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2022, 10:44:12 AM »

The main loadout problem with Vanguard (after the obligatory list of three or four mods for shieldless ships) is the center composite, whether to put a missile there or a LAG to make it more accurate.

Currently, the loadout I use is...  LAG in center composite, Railgun in the mount directly behind it, two LMGs in the mounts next to the railgun, and two Vulcans on the outer turrets next to LMGs.  Sabot racks in the side composities.  Hullmods are Armored Turrets, Heavy Armor, Resistant Flux Conduits, and ITU (+70 range is a noticeable difference in frigate duels)  Rest of OP (about 8 or so) in vents (no need to max), and no caps (no shield to overload).

I have considered one LMG in the center turret, railgun and LAG next to LMG, and put another missile in center composite.  However, I kind of like LAG in the center composite for minimal "recoil".
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Locklave

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2022, 09:27:36 PM »

I feel like in the end that the design of this ship is so completely inflexible that there will literally be 1 or 2 best build for it with all other builds being clearly vastly inferior. The hull mods for it are set in stone. Is anyone imagining a unique variant of it without heavy armor or armored weapon mounts? Why aren't they built in if they are required? They are the primary form of survival for this ship, this isn't me turning the Onslaught into a armor tank with shunt shields. This is the primary form of the ship pre spending OP that are "non option" options.

Can anyone even think of a single ship in this game with such strict "pick this or be terrible" hull mods? There is a strong argument that can be made that those 2 hull mods aren't even the only set in stone ones for this ship and that 4-6 might realistically forced on us. Those hull mods nearly all being survival related.

This ship is like the Buffalo Mk II, it's a meme ship, minus the charm. Even if a perfect build is found it will still be overpriced and far to expensive to maintain and repair to justify it. It's not useless but it certainly isn't pulling it's weight.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2022, 09:10:13 AM »

Can anyone even think of a single ship in this game with such strict "pick this or be terrible" hull mods? There is a strong argument that can be made that those 2 hull mods aren't even the only set in stone ones for this ship and that 4-6 might realistically forced on us. Those hull mods nearly all being survival related.
I can, Harbinger.  It is basically a phase Vanguard without the zombie features since its system was overnerfed into near uselessness, and it needs the same Armored Turrets, Heavy Armor, and Resistant Flux Conduits to not die as fast.  It is too slow to play assassin despite AI attempting it.  At least AI Vanguard can do something resembling competence as long as the enemy is not packing High Intensity Lasers.

Hyperion without Safety Override, kind of.  Hyperion is still usable without it, but SO makes Hyperion so much stronger.

Also, Ziggurat without Phase Anchor, at least for the flagship.  It needs the firepower boost to outgun things instead of taking damage when it decloaks. Unfortunately, the AI does not know how to exploit the quickened reload times and plays it exactly as without Phase Anchor.  Without Phase Anchor, all Ziggurat is good for is a super-sized dark Omen with unblockable EMP, which alone is generally not worth the cost of using Ziggurat.

I guess ITU for many ships is one, but that does not really count since the game tells you that it is expected for most ships to use it.

My gripe with the required hullmods for Vanguard is they are not all available immediately early unless player takes some Combat skills immediately.  As for Vanguard itself, it needs to be cheaper.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 09:14:16 AM by Megas »
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FenMuir

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2022, 12:42:35 PM »

Vanguards are terrible at being a standard ship.
Vanguards are great at being a non-standard ship.

Vanguards cannot be overloaded since they lack shields.
Vanguards can quickly close the distance with enemies.
Vanguards can have extremely high flux with no detriment (certain skills make it a benefit).

Effective use of Vanguards:
1) Extremely high burst damage,
2) As high of vents as you can get,
3) Use Damper Field to vent your flux.
4) Use System Overrides to get your vents higher.
5) Don't try to survive. Try to die where your explosion will damage them.
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Grievous69

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2022, 12:46:43 PM »

2) As high of vents as you can get
But why? As you said it can't get overloaded, only thing generating flux are weapons, so have your dissipation match weapon flux as close as possible. Ideally it should be a tiny bit under so you can abuse Polarized armour.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2022, 12:55:40 PM »

Because Vanguard cannot overload, it does not need to be flux neutral, and generation can be more than dissipation to some extent.  It also does not need caps either.
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FenMuir

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2022, 01:20:27 PM »

2) As high of vents as you can get
But why? As you said it can't get overloaded, only thing generating flux are weapons, so have your dissipation match weapon flux as close as possible. Ideally it should be a tiny bit under so you can abuse Polarized armour.
Because there is no way your dissipation will exceed your generation if you're going balls-to-the-wall damage, so it let's your high burst damage last longer before needing to vent.

That said, there is but so much 5 small mounts can do.

I'll probably make a video about it later when I get around to testing it more thoroughly, but my prospective build would be 2 assault guns, 3 dual autocannons, and as many vents as I can get. If points left over, heavy armor and integrated point defense AI in that order.

Go in. Paunch! Damper Field. Paunch! Damper Field. Paunch! Damper Field. Paunch! Damper Field.
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Grievous69

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2022, 01:26:22 PM »

I used Light Mortars on them because LAGs do jack *** to armour, unless you're building Vanguards to specifically kill Broadswords then I guess ok. IPDAI is a waste, you need to stack as many armour mods as you can. Heavy armour alone is more important than guns, as the ship is a distraction frigate. Damper field can only protect you for a short while. And even with all that as soon as you stumble upon a Phase lance or any burst beam, say goodbye to your Vanguards.
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SapphireSage

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2022, 01:43:36 PM »

Re: Polarized Armor skill. Don't forget that PA only applies to hard flux and in cases of ships that do not have any shields or phase capabilities, be it base or removed, it acts as though the ship is constantly at 50% Hard Flux.

In the case of the Vanguard, this means that Polarized Armor is a constant 25% Armor/EMP damage reduction unless you decide to put Makeshift Shield on it.
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Grievous69

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2022, 01:49:51 PM »

Oh yeaaah, been awhile since my first playthrough. Well either way there's no point in adding any caps, and vents how many you can fit.
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