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Author Topic: Vanguard is terrible  (Read 17303 times)

Draba

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2022, 02:58:08 AM »

I think the Vanguard was supposed to be the low-tech doctrine's answer to fancy high-tech frigates like the Tempest or Scarab but the final product is in the Lasher/Wolf tier.
I actually prefer Lasher over Vanguard. With the builtin rangefinder+ammo feeder it's pretty nice, just have serious popping problems.
The main thing Vanguard has over it for me is that it seems to be in position for firing torpedos at hull really often.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 05:40:27 AM by Draba »
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Vind

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2022, 03:56:44 AM »

     AI piloted stock attack pirate vanguard with steady officer lvl 5 (impact mitigation,ballistic mastery,target analysis,systems expertise elite, polarized armor) loses battle to single pirate hound in simulation. All due to damper field usage while hound just fires away and eventually kills off the vanguard.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2022, 06:37:49 AM »

One nice thing about the Vanguard is that rugged construction also applies to enemy Vanguards you've taken out, so if you tangle with some Hegemony patrols you can grab Vanguards with no d-mods pretty cheaply. Of course fighting with the Hegemony early on isn't likely to be typical player behavior in unmodded games.
That, plus the weapons it uses are found everywhere even as loot, is why I use Vanguard at times.

I think the Vanguard was supposed to be the low-tech doctrine's answer to fancy high-tech frigates like the Tempest or Scarab but the final product is in the Lasher/Wolf tier.
Which would not be bad if it did not cost almost as much as a destroyer and more than a Scarab!
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lyravega

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2022, 09:41:35 PM »

Officered scarabs are my go-to for frigates.
I like Omens with officers. 'Systems Expertise' + 'Target Analysis+' + 'Point Defense+' officers to be precise. Then you give them a short PD weapon, possibly one you get from a [REDACTED]. They'll just toy around with their prey, till the big brothers join the fight :D

You should try Monitors with officers, it can go toe to toe with monster ships. Go with an anti shield weapon and watch a Brilliant burn out on flux just trying to get it's shields down.

I've been flying a few monitors, and even without officers, they mess up with the AI real good. I've settled in a medium remnant system, and just with 4 monitors that I've found lying around, I managed to destroy 4 medium-sized fleets attacking my orbital. They're extremely good at distraction, too!
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Locklave

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2022, 01:44:03 AM »

AI piloted stock attack pirate vanguard with steady officer lvl 5 (impact mitigation,ballistic mastery,target analysis,systems expertise elite, polarized armor) loses battle to single pirate hound in simulation. All due to damper field usage while hound just fires away and eventually kills off the vanguard.

I said the system was detrimental to it's gameplay and that right there is a perfect example of it.

The AI has absolutely no clue when it should be using the Dampener field on a ship without a shield. It just randomly turns it on while it should be firing giving the enemy free damage and gaining absolutely nothing.

Put a Dampener field on literally any shielded ship and it's survivability dramatically increases, put it on one without a shield and it only lives slightly longer at the expense of losing firepower.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2022, 06:21:21 AM »

I guess Vanguard is Cerberus Mk. II.  Cerberus was intended as a frigate-sized Mule, but failed at the job, and thus we got Wayfarer later.

Vanguard needs to be demoted to basic frigate, with about 20k-25k cost and maybe lowered to 5 DP.  It is okay at being a zombie ship, just too expensive for that.  Either that, or buff it more until it is truly a premium frigate on par with Scarab and Tempest.

Meanwhile, Scarab is underpriced when compared to other elite frigates.  But then again, is it better than the similarly priced Shrike?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 08:00:19 AM by Megas »
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Euqocelbbog

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2022, 06:10:28 PM »

I actually prefer Lasher over Vanguard. With the builtin rangefinder+ammo feeder it's pretty nice, just have serious popping problems.
The main thing Vanguard has over it for me is that it seems to be in position for firing torpedos at hull really often.

Same honestly, I'm a big fan of the Lasher. I'd take a Lasher over a Vanguard just about any day and then when purchase costs and deployment points are considered the Vanguard looks pretty disappointing.
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Locklave

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2022, 04:32:18 PM »

Just did 3 station battles in a row. Sat on the station view so I could watch closely. Pirates attacking said station.

The Vanguards, every single one did the same thing. Roll up to the station, fire a couple rounds while following the face they are targeting then dampener field spam till dead. They didn't try to run with dampener, they just sat there eating the stations firepower till dead.

Seriously watch how this ship fights, hammerhead rolls in and hits it. It turns to shoot back, it is already in firing range and has no flux buildup, then hits dampener field. It's the same thing.

The AI 100% has no clue when it should use Dampener field on a shieldless ship so it just randomly uses it giving enemies the advantage. If someone mods this system off the ship it will instantly perform better.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2022, 06:21:33 AM »

The AI 100% has no clue when it should use Dampener field on a shieldless ship so it just randomly uses it giving enemies the advantage. If someone mods this system off the ship it will instantly perform better.
I guess have Shield Shunt remove Damper Field too, although Shield Shunt needs to be more useful.
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Locklave

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2022, 06:58:44 PM »

The AI 100% has no clue when it should use Dampener field on a shieldless ship so it just randomly uses it giving enemies the advantage. If someone mods this system off the ship it will instantly perform better.
I guess have Shield Shunt remove Damper Field too, although Shield Shunt needs to be more useful.

I suppose.

I'd still rather the built in system just not be another Drover situation where it's supposed to help but makes things worse. I guess this is just how it is for now.
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SCC

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2022, 12:10:06 AM »

I think the Vanguard was supposed to be the low-tech doctrine's answer to fancy high-tech frigates like the Tempest or Scarab but the final product is in the Lasher/Wolf tier.
I actually prefer Lasher over Vanguard. With the builtin rangefinder+ammo feeder it's pretty nice, just have serious popping problems.
The main thing Vanguard has over it for me is that it seems to be in position for firing torpedos at hull really often.
Yeah. Lasher already was pretty decent and now it has a decent range advantage over other frigates to boot. It isn't even less missile-efficient than Vanguard, though Vanguard has somewhat better mobility, which I don't think excuses its performance in other fields or its cost.

Üstad

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2022, 02:18:50 PM »

The ship should have unique integrated ammo feed hullmod which just increases ballistic fire rate to 1.5 also flux cost should be to 1.25 or 1.5. It's a shield without shield it should be aggressive vanguard as the name implies. Or it should have accelerated ammo feed system like hammerhead which is easier to change into. Damper field AI should also be improved.

Also this ship has been invented long before shields were a thing, so the damper tech should be improved. While "dampering" around the ship should have strong electromagnetic  field and deter most missiles hitting it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 03:06:43 PM by Üstad »
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2022, 04:34:11 PM »

Every last Vanguard I loot has the same hullmods, which include Heavy Armor, Armored Mounts, Missile Racks, Insulated Engines, and so on...  It is stacking every last armor and engine protection hullmod it can get; hullmods that are not available immediately at the start.

Vanguard should have Heavy Armor built-in for free.  It also needs to be cheaper (4 or 5 DP, cost slashed by a third or half).  Then, it would be a solid Lasher or Wolf-tier ship.

There are not too many targets where Vanguard can kill without getting killed itself.
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Salter

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2022, 10:47:14 PM »

Vanguard really needs a shield if it wants to come out of the low-mid tier play under AI control. Most frigates will not survive the larger fleet battles unless they have something to block shots (Or at least get out of the way quickly) or are designed with a defensive loadout in mind. Even dinky wolf class frigates can survive alot better. They might not punch above their own weight but give them fire support or point defense and they will compliment fleet actions much better than the Vanguard.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2022, 03:55:39 PM »

I have used Vanguards lately in endgame bounties just to see if I can get them to work without dying too much.

A thing I noticed is if the enemy fleet has anything with High Intensity Laser and points it at Vanguards, they drop like flies.  HIL is too effective against all of the armor in the world.  If the fleet does not have such a can opener, Vanguard sometimes dies a bit more often than other frigates, sometimes not.

If Vanguard was not so expensive relative to other frigates, it might be okay as it is, but it is too expensive.  Centurion is similar to Vanguard and cheaper than it, and it does much what Vanguard can do and live longer for less cost.  Vanguard needs to be cheaper.

Vanguard is Centurion Mk II.  Even Centurion began flawed, with high cost and lackluster performance, although early Centurion's main problem was terrible firing arcs that effectively gave it firepower no better than a (Mercury) shuttle.
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