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[Megas]

As someone with no Leadership (and thus no Wolfpack), but still needs frigates to cap points and relieve pressure off of my big ships, or do not have enough DP left for more bigger ships, Vanguard is an option that has worked alright in larger but not quite endgame level fights, when I mixed them in with other small ships.

More often than not, I lose a high-tech frigate or two (Omen, Scarab, Tempest) in late-game fights, and I have exploited Hull Restoration and Field Repairs to resurrect them pristine and with some CR to be redeployed almost immediately in the next fight.

Also, when I recover enemy Vanguards, they are relatively easy to outfit on the field with loot from human bounties and send them back in battle almost immediately.

When I expect to lose frigates no matter what they are, it hurts less to lose Vanguard than a high-tech frigate.

P.S.  Thanks to Rugged Construction, Vanguards from enemy fleets often dropped as pristine while every other hull that also does not have Rugged Construction (Hound, Cerberus) has at least one d-mod and usually two or more.

[intrinsic_parity]

I very carefully build my scarab loadouts to avoid flux locking (it's critical to ensure they have dissipation >= weapon flux+shield flux + ~20-30 to account for ship system flux generation IMO). They die very infrequently, almost never in normal pirate/faction fights. My one vanguard cost me more supplies than 4 scarabs over 10+ normal bounty battles.

[Megas]

I already avoid exceeding dissipation when I can.  Does not always save a frigate when it gets focused by a capital or multiple ships.  Gets annoying when a frigate is in the path of at least half the enemy fleet beelining toward the point it just captured when the rest of my fleet is scattered and may not arrive in time to help.

Currently, I use fewer big ships plus about three to four frigates for point capping and minor harassment.  My fleet composition varies depending on which ships need to be fixed by Hull Restoration.  While my fleet is almost endgame ready, it is not strong enough (yet) to handle the toughest fights without too many casualties.

Vanguard is convenient as an enemy drop (when I use Field Repairs and Hull Restoration), and does what I need it to do, which is cap points and distract, and I do not care much if it dies.  I do not build or buy them, no need to.

I am at the point when I have money to burn (but not too much to afford restoring everything), but not time to wait for Hull Restoration to fix all the d-mods (and not rich enough to restore ships aside from frigates under 50k), so I am still averse to casualties with ships I care about.  Vanguard is one of those, "Ah! clean hull dropped from the enemy, I'll use it!"  If it dies, no problem.  If it lives and stays pristine, I will add it to my reserve ship collection.  Occasionally, other ships with only one or two d-mods drop, and I use them too if I have the weapons on hand.  Vanguard just happens to drop with less d-mods more often thanks to Rugged Construction, and it is less junky than Cerberus or Hound.

Currently, my frigates are three Tempests, one Scarab, and one Omen.  Vanguards I use are usually looted from the enemy, armed up, and sent to fight more bounties instead of my more permanent fleet members until I return home.

[intrinsic_parity]

I really don't like burning 50-60 supplies every times a vanguard dies or takes lots of damage. That's 6k (or more) credits in most fights down the drain.

[Locklave]

Better frigates get flux locked...

They got flux locked because of the massive damage their shields took preventing the ship from being destroyed. Where as the Vanguard will just explode. Those ships ate thousands of damage, can retreat and do it again in 15 seconds.

The basic upkeep is higher, the repair costs are always substantially higher because everything is armor and hull damage and it's survival is inferior resulting in more wasted crew/supplies on recovery.

I don't care about the limited cases where it can burst down an enemies flux. The moment it encounters a ship it can't burn the flux of it is 100% dead and that's assuming something doesn't have the weapons to shred it be on approach. It either wins a burst fight or it's dead, when other ships can escape/recover and reattack.

It's frustrating knowing it has these massive problems and having anyone talk about it like it's fine in this or that regard. Other cheaper ships (in both cost and upkeep) would do the same job better. You can like and love the ship, go for it, but don't keep making posts pretending like it's shortcomings don't exist because you like the ship.

It should be a better ship.

[Dexy]

The Vanguard is terrible because frigates without shields are terrible. It needs shields.

Unless the player has Hull Restoration, using the Vanguard should be avoided. If you have hull restoration, there is no particular advantage to using the Vanguard. One could argue that even with Hull Restoration it's better to use a frigate with shields that doesn't die as often. Maybe it's good with Derelict Operations.

[Null Ganymede]

I actually tried it in-game. It keeps doing way more than its DP worth of damage with no officer/minimal skill investment.

You're probably using it in the wrong role or haven't actually tried it.

See ya'll haters in the next AI Tournament, I guess?

[Locklave]

You're probably using it in the wrong role or haven't actually tried it.

It kills things, that is it's role, like every combat ship. I have tried it many times and specifically seem to have the same problems with it other people have experienced.

Your loadout doesn't solve or address it's survivability issues, nor does it mitigate the dramatically increased costs to repair and recover. Not minor problems to be waved off. Your posts haven't even touched on the increased costs of operation.

I want it to be a better ship, I want that low tech premium frigate role filled by a solid ship, this isn't a solid ship currently. If I or anyone here hated the ship we wouldn't bother posting about it's problem because we'd be apathetic to it's situation.

[Megas]

The reasons why I use Vanguard, despite its flaws, is the other 6+ DP high-tech frigates everyone likes die too often for me in endgame bounties.  (I have no Leadership, and my current fleet composition with three or four expensive big ships and the rest frigates, so my frigates are exposed to dangerous situations often.)  Said high-tech frigates die less often than Vanguard, but not rarely enough.  When all frigates short of Monitor die from time to time, and I have the recovery skills from Industry, I will recover low d-modded ships from the enemy to use as expendable units, and Vanguard stands out as being pristine often and with easy to arm mounts.

I would not mind Vanguard (and Wolf for that matter) being improved.  I kind of like Vanguard to double-down on crash test dummy or zombie, but that would only benefit Industry users.  Probably should be more survivable and more friendly to non-Industry users.

I guess a way to improve Vanguard is to have their CR cost and recovery be high like high-tech because low CR cost and recovery is only good for chain battlers that live from fight to fight, not crash test dummies that are expected to die and shrug it off.  Also, ships with Rugged Construction should get some free repairs after battle like Field Repairs (and stacks with Field Repairs).

[intrinsic_parity]

I'm sure it will be great in the AI tournament because its biggest downsides are logistical.... If you didn't have to pay supplies to recover it and repair it, it would be solid. No one is arguing that it doesn't do enough damage...

[Megas]

After playing a bit more and checking out other frigates, I think Vanguard is overpriced, at least for restoring it.  The basic frigates like Wolf cost under 20k to fix a single d-mod.  A Scarab or Shrike, a bit under 30k.  Vanguard, about 45k.  Tempest, phase frigates, and basic destroyers (Enforcer and Hammerhead) cost about 55k.

If Vanguard's combat power stays as it is, it probably should cost no more than 30k to fix a d-mod, and maybe have its DP cost lowered to 5.  It should not cost more than a Scarab.  Vanguard seems closer to a basic combat frigate than an elite frigate in combat performance.

If Scarab and IR Pulse Lasers were much more commonplace as loot, I would use Scarab instead of Vanguard.  Currently, I use Vanguard out of convenience.

[Thaago]

It does seem too expensive, though I don't think the ship is supposed to be repaired. D mods on it do less afterall.

[Megas]

It is not just restoring it, but also buying it.  I checked Restore costs, but prices of buying a ship scale similarly.  Restoring one d-mod ship costs slightly more than a new ship.

Vanguard costs nearly as much as most elite frigates or basic destroyers, but does not perform as well as one.

[Euqocelbbog]

One nice thing about the Vanguard is that rugged construction also applies to enemy Vanguards you've taken out, so if you tangle with some Hegemony patrols you can grab Vanguards with no d-mods pretty cheaply. Of course fighting with the Hegemony early on isn't likely to be typical player behavior in unmodded games.

I think the Vanguard was supposed to be the low-tech doctrine's answer to fancy high-tech frigates like the Tempest or Scarab but the final product is in the Lasher/Wolf tier.

[Null Ganymede]

Past level 5 or so my combat fleets are usually throwing away supplies they can't carry, but the logistics cost is a thing. Market/repair price does seem like a low end destroyer rather than a 6dp frigate.