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Author Topic: The best wolfpack - Hyperion Vs End game(Space Dorito, Ziggurat, unique bounty)  (Read 6885 times)

Ibudoto

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWTtOfSX8pw&t=1s

Some people seems to think that frigate only wolfpack is not viable but here it is, deleting worst threats.

Downside is that it actually made game too easy I'm bored of playing anymore though. Pretty much 95% game can be won without any risk with auto piloting

Problem with Hyperion is low peak performance due to SO and fighters but you can cover it with only letting reckless officer drive them and full assault + eliminate order on everything. That make them extremely aggressive, often ignoring fighters and everything else and only attack. They can't use fighters if you kill their carriers and they can't shoot missiles if you kill their ship.

Pretty much every vanilla weapons cannot damage Hyperion anyway due to 0.40 shield damage taken. Even kinetics deal only 80% damage while energy weapons deal only around 30% because solar shielding, around 20% from explosive, and that's if the weapon manage to hit instead of missing due to small hull of Hyperion.

Hyperion without SO is utter garbage so don't use it without SO. Even with elite helmsmanship you need to drop shield before using teleport which is too dangerous, not to mention you can't really deal significant damage due to limited weapon choice.

Heavy blaster deal similar damage to large weapons, 600(with wolfpack) damage per shot allows it to penetrate armor better than explosive weapons while dealing with shield better than kinetic weapons.
To make example, Heavy Needler deal 500 DPS against shield, while heavy blaster deal 600 DPS, with wolfpack.
Assault Chaingun deal 150 damage per shot against armor which is not enough to penetrate heavy armor, if the target ship has officer with Polarized Armor it's going to deal practically 0 damage against armor and hull. 600 damage on the other hands, can penetrate even the hardest ships including the Omega.
Only downside with Heavy Blaster is that it cost high flux which is covered by Safety Override.

Even with SO you can't you use 3 Heavy Blasters so I'm using 2 Heavy Blaster and 1 Heavy Machine Gun. Heavy Machine gun deal practically 0 damage against hull, but deals around 750 DPS with shield. What make this build extremely powerful is that it doesn't generate any soft flux. 2 heavy blasters generate 1440 flux which is decreased by -10% from Energy Weapon Mastery, add Heavy Machine Gun and now it's shooting 1400 with flux per sec, shield generate 150 soft flux with stabilized shield. 1550 soft generated while 1560 vented, it's perfect zero flux build.

with 0.40 shield efficiency + around 2000 DPS + no soft flux build up you can win every flux war. Once they drop the shield they have to take 1200 damage from Heavy Blasters every second which will break their weapon and engine on top. Even the strongest enemies will just melt.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 10:19:16 PM by Ibudoto »
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TaLaR

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If only AI knew how to turtle in a corner until your Hyperions run out of PPT.
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Ibudoto

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If only AI knew how to turtle in a corner until your Hyperions run out of PPT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z6aSEce3aw&t

Hiding behind corner and crying is not viable tactic. Hyperion can just slaughter them in the corner, and then slaughter them as soon as they spawn. Around 7:10 they try to go back but they are blocked by invisible wall and being spawn killed.

This is before I disabled mods though so I'm a bit overpowered.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 11:06:21 PM by Ibudoto »
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TaLaR

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This is before I disabled mods though so I'm a bit overpowered.

That's important point. Any balance claim on heavily modded content is kinda null and void.
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Ibudoto

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This is before I disabled mods though so I'm a bit overpowered.

That's important point. Any balance claim on heavily modded content is kinda null and void.

First video is mods disabled as stated on the subtitle. It's also not heavily modded as it doesn't have any faction mod or weapon/ship pack.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 01:35:57 AM by Ibudoto »
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tseikk1

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This is before I disabled mods though so I'm a bit overpowered.

That's important point. Any balance claim on heavily modded content is kinda null and void.

First video is mods disabled as stated on the subtitle. It's also not heavily modded as it doesn't have any faction mod or weapon/ship pack.

Yeah, and in that video the hyperions did a lot worse. Barely beating the 1m bounty with you manually clearing most fighters. Without player piloting you would've lost that 100%.

Hyperion without SO is utter garbage so don't use it without SO. Even with elite helmsmanship you need to drop shield before using teleport which is too dangerous, not to mention you can't really deal significant damage due to limited weapon choice.

This is an odd claim to make while barely clearing the content with high losses while doing most of the heavy lifting in a player piloted supership.
I'd love to see you clearing that 1000DP ordo, in vanilla, with all SO, without doing 3/4 of the work yourself. What I'm trying to say is the player can make any fleet comp or ship build work, claim it's "the best", when all they do is player pilot (albeit skillfully) a solo carry ship and/or use mods. Heck, a certain member of the community even SOLO'D doritos in a Doom. Maybe this means the best fleet is having no fleet at all? ;)
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SCC

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Not all fleet compositions can be saved with player intervention.

Kinsume

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Not all fleet compositions can be saved with player intervention.

This sounds like a potential challenge playthrough lol. Sadly I'm a horrible pilot so I can't save any fleet.
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Ibudoto

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Yeah, and in that video the hyperions did a lot worse. Barely beating the 1m bounty with you manually clearing most fighters. Without player piloting you would've lost that 100%.

Hyperion without SO is utter garbage so don't use it without SO. Even with elite helmsmanship you need to drop shield before using teleport which is too dangerous, not to mention you can't really deal significant damage due to limited weapon choice.

This is an odd claim to make while barely clearing the content with high losses while doing most of the heavy lifting in a player piloted supership.
I'd love to see you clearing that 1000DP ordo, in vanilla, with all SO, without doing 3/4 of the work yourself. What I'm trying to say is the player can make any fleet comp or ship build work, claim it's "the best", when all they do is player pilot (albeit skillfully) a solo carry ship and/or use mods. Heck, a certain member of the community even SOLO'D doritos in a Doom. Maybe this means the best fleet is having no fleet at all? ;)
Because losing 1 Hyperion and some junk Aurora I salvaged or 0 Hyperion against Dorito and Ziggurat is "barely clearing content with heavy losses", and according to Detailed Combat report I contributed only 15% damage. I suppose 3/4 means 15%, damn mad math.

You can see kill logs on the upper left side by the way, which is about 95% kills done by AI.

I'd love to see you clearing entire end game content without taking any "heavy losses" like losing even 1 ship, without player controlled. Your fleet must be extremely strong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzp_hgMmUDU


Anyway, here's 1100 DP ordo battle only done by AI. I hope you don't say I'm cheating because I used tactics instead of brainlessly watching it.
 
I admit without legend mod it's kinda dangerous due to low CR, but then again you don't have to fight 1100 DP by going to high danger system and stacking them intentionally. It actually felt more fun because it felt like playing Total War game set in space. These things can move from opposite of map within 10 second so they are essentially like super cavalry, but I also made some dumb decisions here and there.

 it also seems like 2x speed make AI more likely go commit suicide by deactivating shield when they are right next to ship about to go blow up.

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tseikk1

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Yeah, and in that video the hyperions did a lot worse. Barely beating the 1m bounty with you manually clearing most fighters. Without player piloting you would've lost that 100%.

Hyperion without SO is utter garbage so don't use it without SO. Even with elite helmsmanship you need to drop shield before using teleport which is too dangerous, not to mention you can't really deal significant damage due to limited weapon choice.

This is an odd claim to make while barely clearing the content with high losses while doing most of the heavy lifting in a player piloted supership.
I'd love to see you clearing that 1000DP ordo, in vanilla, with all SO, without doing 3/4 of the work yourself. What I'm trying to say is the player can make any fleet comp or ship build work, claim it's "the best", when all they do is player pilot (albeit skillfully) a solo carry ship and/or use mods. Heck, a certain member of the community even SOLO'D doritos in a Doom. Maybe this means the best fleet is having no fleet at all? ;)
Because losing 1 Hyperion and some junk Aurora I salvaged or 0 Hyperion against Dorito and Ziggurat is "barely clearing content with heavy losses", and according to Detailed Combat report I contributed only 15% damage. I suppose 3/4 means 15%, damn mad math.

You can see kill logs on the upper left side by the way, which is about 95% kills done by AI.

I'd love to see you clearing entire end game content without taking any "heavy losses" like losing even 1 ship, without player controlled. Your fleet must be extremely strong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzp_hgMmUDU


Anyway, here's 1100 DP ordo battle only done by AI. I hope you don't say I'm cheating because I used tactics instead of brainlessly watching it.
 
I admit without legend mod it's kinda dangerous due to low CR, but then again you don't have to fight 1100 DP by going to high danger system and stacking them intentionally. It actually felt more fun because it felt like playing Total War game set in space. These things can move from opposite of map within 10 second so they are essentially like super cavalry, but I also made some dumb decisions here and there.

 it also seems like 2x speed make AI more likely go commit suicide by deactivating shield when they are right next to ship about to go blow up.

By barely clearing the content I specifically meant the doritos fights, and especially the part where they split up as fighters and you clear them. But yes, this is impressive, provided this is indeed vanilla.

I'm really surprised the fight went so well for you. I was almost certain you'd either run out of ppt or have more casualties due to random malfunctions screwing you over. Neither happened. 30-40DP worth of stuff lost is usually what I manage with smaller double ordos (although they are almost always non-smodded glimmers), but the best result with 1000+ dp I got was 62, with similar levels of command point usage as shown in your video.  I'm wondering how your hyperions managed to keep their CR so high during all that fighting. It also feels kind of wrong to see SO hyperions fight for what I believe in real time is 14+ min? When I tried to use SO with my hyperions they straight up didn't last long enough to finish the fight.
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DaShiv

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It also feels kind of wrong to see SO hyperions fight for what I believe in real time is 14+ min? When I tried to use SO with my hyperions they straight up didn't last long enough to finish the fight.

There's no real mystery to it - Starship Legends gave his ships all kinds of bonuses, including CR decay reduction. 14+ minutes with SO Hyperions is, indeed, comically different than the vanilla experience and nowhere close to comparable.

As someone else noted in another thread, when he tried fighting Remnants without the mods, he took huge losses. There's nothing special here.
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Kinsume

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It also feels kind of wrong to see SO hyperions fight for what I believe in real time is 14+ min? When I tried to use SO with my hyperions they straight up didn't last long enough to finish the fight.

There's no real mystery to it - Starship Legends gave his ships all kinds of bonuses, including CR decay reduction. 14+ minutes with SO Hyperions is, indeed, comically different than the vanilla experience and nowhere close to comparable.

As someone else noted in another thread, when he tried fighting Remnants without the mods, he took huge losses. There's nothing special here.

My wolfpack isn't S-modded yet, tbh not sure if I will go that route or make the switch into Capitals, but they struggled pretty badly against the Z, can't imagine they'd do much better against the other endgame content.
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Draba

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My wolfpack isn't S-modded yet, tbh not sure if I will go that route or make the switch into Capitals, but they struggled pretty badly against the Z, can't imagine they'd do much better against the other endgame content.
Just use a mod to give every frigate 500K hull and post how much *** they kick, easy :)
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Hiruma Kai

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My wolfpack isn't S-modded yet, tbh not sure if I will go that route or make the switch into Capitals, but they struggled pretty badly against the Z, can't imagine they'd do much better against the other endgame content.

The enemy Z's special ship system bypasses shields, which makes it particularly effective against frigates since they rely on their shields for defense, and most are not known for their exceptionally strong point defense systems.  A hight tech frigate fleet will generally hold up better against the Remnants and the super redacted than against the Ziggurat.  Although, I would suggest fully s-modding the fleet plus full and leveled officer corp before tackling Radiant Ordos and Shunts.

You can probably s-mod 4 frigate/destroyer ships without too much regret right now.  Your typical end game fleet shouldn't be 100% Capitals, so you'll always want some smaller stuff.  2 Hyperions and 2 scarab is only 46 DP out of a possible 240 for example.  Plenty left for 3-5 capitals.
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Ibudoto

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It also feels kind of wrong to see SO hyperions fight for what I believe in real time is 14+ min? When I tried to use SO with my hyperions they straight up didn't last long enough to finish the fight.

There's no real mystery to it - Starship Legends gave his ships all kinds of bonuses, including CR decay reduction. 14+ minutes with SO Hyperions is, indeed, comically different than the vanilla experience and nowhere close to comparable.

As someone else noted in another thread, when he tried fighting Remnants without the mods, he took huge losses. There's nothing special here.
Okay I disabled all mods other than CC and created new char, made test to see how long SO Hyperion last and Hyperion without SO, officer last.

Mind you I used console to summon Hyperion because getting 2 of it without CC took too long.

https://youtu.be/CIayZxLGmkU

Hyperion with SO and officer last around 13 or 14 minute while Hyperion without SO and officer last around 9 or 10 miunte. If your ship instantly crash it's because you didn't used officer not because you used SO.

If you can't believe it just test "cOmICaLlY dIFfeReNT VanIlLa eXpErieNCe" yourself. Why do people has this paranoia that SO somehow make their ship instantly crash when it actually has very insignificant effect on ships life time.

On the other hands, it seems not engaged to enemy ship make CR and PPT degrade slightly slower. Since actual battle isn't just orbiting enemy ship for 14 minute straight it can actually last longer. Also  I didn't took system expertize which add another 30 sec, and I might missed some way to squeeze more PPT out of it. Edit : apparently there's no enemy presence buff that prevent PPT from degrading if you can't see enemy ship.


Quote
keep their CR so high
Define "High CR"
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 10:15:01 PM by Ibudoto »
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