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Author Topic: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds  (Read 12783 times)

Kinsume

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Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« on: January 10, 2022, 12:48:14 PM »

As the title states I've decided to give it a try,fleet is made up of what I've found so far that looked like it'd do well.

1x Medusa
1x Hammerhead
1x Sunder
2x Scarab
5x Tempest
1x Brawler
1x Brawler (TT)
2x Wolf

Still in the early game so I'd prefer builds that don't rely on a bunch of story points to make them work. I have 4x Level 1/2 officers sitting in the Scarabs and Brawlers right now.

Edit :

Most of the stuff I've found while searching the forums seems out-of-date.

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=21498.0

This link here has a nice setup for some builds but they're all S-Mod builds for later on down the road. Looking more for something that'll get me through the early/mid game. Also to note, while the manual ship piloting is fun I'm complete garbage at it so even my main ship gets auto-piloted. AI friendly builds preferably.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 01:10:39 PM by Kinsume »
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Nimiety

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2022, 01:47:13 PM »

Those designs are for fighting remnants. See: solar shielding and hardened shields on everything. Not sure what your idea of early/midgame is. Can't go wrong with safety overrides on everything though! SO is only a detriment if you let your engagements go on for too long. Just retreat once CR is about to start degrading and there are no downsides

SO hammerhead, 2 chainguns and 2 dual mgs (the classic)
SO medusa, 2 heavy blasters 2 rails and 2 lasers
SO sunder with tachyon or plasma cannon, whatever you can get
SO wolf with ion pulsers and sabots
SO scarabs with 4 lasers and 2 ions
etc

won't really work vs ordos because their officers will prevent you from fielding enough frigates to surround them, but for early bounties and derelict fleets it should work fine. Frigates disable, destroyers kill. Maybe outfit a few ofthe tempests to chase down frigates themselves and it'll work out.0
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Kinsume

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2022, 02:24:15 PM »

Those designs are for fighting remnants. See: solar shielding and hardened shields on everything. Not sure what your idea of early/midgame is. Can't go wrong with safety overrides on everything though! SO is only a detriment if you let your engagements go on for too long. Just retreat once CR is about to start degrading and there are no downsides

SO hammerhead, 2 chainguns and 2 dual mgs (the classic)
SO medusa, 2 heavy blasters 2 rails and 2 lasers
SO sunder with tachyon or plasma cannon, whatever you can get
SO wolf with ion pulsers and sabots
SO scarabs with 4 lasers and 2 ions
etc

won't really work vs ordos because their officers will prevent you from fielding enough frigates to surround them, but for early bounties and derelict fleets it should work fine. Frigates disable, destroyers kill. Maybe outfit a few ofthe tempests to chase down frigates themselves and it'll work out.0

Hmm, I see. Yeah my primary goal right now is just surviving pirates and maybe doing some bounties. Been running away from the remnants and such for the most part.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2022, 02:27:25 PM »

Safety Overrides on everything is a pretty fool-proof early game recipe.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2022, 02:45:37 PM »

My wolfpack scarabs are usually 2x swarmers + ir pulse laser + ion cannon + anti matter blaster with shield conversion front (critical for 360 shields so you can drop PD). If you can get bonus dissipation from skills (fleet wide dissipation + extra vents + ordinance expertise), you can run 2x ir pulse laser builds or work in omega weapons and stuff, but I think scarab is a ship that particularly benefits from have some spare dissipation because its ship system generates flux, and it also is completely reliant on shields, so it really needs to keep flux levels down to avoid dying. I usually try to have 20ish dissipation over weapon flux + shield flux. Other valuable hullmods are hardened subsystems, hardened shields, efficiency overhaul (faster CR recovery is very nice later on in the game).

I've experimented with unstable injector, but I've found that the range reduction with 500 range weapons seems to really handicap the AI, and damage output seems to go down. I think the ship system is already enough mobility, and I almost prefer ITU, as meager as the 10% range is, although I'm not sure it's really better than 4 caps.
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Kinsume

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2022, 03:12:07 PM »

My wolfpack scarabs are usually 2x swarmers + ir pulse laser + ion cannon + anti matter blaster with shield conversion front (critical for 360 shields so you can drop PD). If you can get bonus dissipation from skills (fleet wide dissipation + extra vents + ordinance expertise), you can run 2x ir pulse laser builds or work in omega weapons and stuff, but I think scarab is a ship that particularly benefits from have some spare dissipation because its ship system generates flux, and it also is completely reliant on shields, so it really needs to keep flux levels down to avoid dying. I usually try to have 20ish dissipation over weapon flux + shield flux. Other valuable hullmods are hardened subsystems, hardened shields, efficiency overhaul (faster CR recovery is very nice later on in the game).

I've experimented with unstable injector, but I've found that the range reduction with 500 range weapons seems to really handicap the AI, and damage output seems to go down. I think the ship system is already enough mobility, and I almost prefer ITU, as meager as the 10% range is, although I'm not sure it's really better than 4 caps.

Right now mine are just setup with 2x ion cannons and 4x LR PD Laser after I just re-fit my fleet. Problem I'm having with most my frigates is the AI is too scared to go in, presumably due to the fighters / missiles. I'm hoping this will fix that.

Safety Overrides on everything is a pretty fool-proof early game recipe.

I'm giving it a try, just did a fleet wide refit and pretty much everything has SO on it now.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2022, 03:16:32 PM »

If you're looking to clear out fighters and missiles, you're probably better off adding omens rather than making your scarabs do 0 damage.

Also, making sure your officers and fleet behavior are aggressive would be very important.
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Thaago

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2022, 03:21:54 PM »

Right, you should check out the DPS values on LRPDs and ion cannons. While they are useful weapons to backup others, the result is a ship with about 1.5 small mounts worth of dps. Killing fighters requires chewing through their hitpoints.
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Kinsume

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2022, 03:58:02 PM »

I see, makes sense. I'm open to suggestions lol. He mentioned above to just add 4 lasers and 2 ions, was kinda rolling with that.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2022, 04:00:21 PM »

I think he meant 4 ir pulse lasers, but that's definitely a SO only build (and I would also definitely fit at least one anti matter blaster for hull/armor damage).
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2022, 04:30:40 PM »

Just in case it is not obvious, it's quite possible to have too much flux on SO builds, especially if you're using low flux use weapons like ion cannons and LR PD.

Generally for builds you want weapon flux to be equal to or slightly higher than flux dissipation.  Being slightly over isn't necessarily a bad (especially if not all weapons can fire in the same direction).

I also agree with Intrinsic_parity, if you can get your hands on some omens, they'll do a good job of helping deal with fighters/missiles.  Tactical lasers massed can also deal with fighters relatively well, as they don't get distracted by missiles or flares, but I wouldn't then rely on them for dealing with ships since soft flux doesn't really kill.

Typically, when building ships, I ask 3 questions:
How am I dealing with shields?
How am I dealing with armor?
How do I secure kills?

Let's take a Medusa.  The two universals let you mount either dual light autocannons (572 shield DPS) out to SO's 450 range cap, or dual light machine guns (832 shield DPS) but only out to 300 range.  That's your shield solution.  Heavy Blaster's 500 energy damage is solid for punching through armor, and answers the 2nd.  Since you only need 1 weapon to really take out armor, two can be overkill, and a bit hard on the flux.  I like pairing it with an Ion Pulsar personally, as that helps secure kills.  Once their shields go down, or they resort to shield flickering, the Ion damage will disable engines and weapons all over the ship, making it easier to finish the job.  Bonus if the ships happen to be flanking and getting free ion hits in from an unshielded side.

A no s-mod SO Medusa setup for me would look like 2x dual light autocannon (or dual light machine guns), 1x Heavy Blaster, 1x Ion Pulsar, 2x rear PD lasers, 10 vents, 14 caps, safety overrides.  First priority would be to add Hardened subsystems, then Hardened shields with s-mods.  Combat Endurance is a must have on the officer though.  The autocannon variant is 1228 weapon flux (1148 forward facing) plus 120 for the shield, but only 1000 flux/second dissipation.  Dual light machine gun drops the forward flux usage to 970, and with shield is only 90 flux over dissipation.

Personally, I think scarabs can get away without safety overrides because of their triple speed ship system.  You can do it, but the PPT goes really fast when you're at triple time.  They already have a high potential max speed due to their ship system, and given their mount distribution, can have a reasonable flux budget without SO.  Intrinsic_parity's missiles + ir pulse laser + ion cannon + antimatter blaster is a modest 326 flux/second on average, along with 50 flux/second from front modified shields.  As it is, a scarab with 10 vents and flux distributor can hit 380 flux/second, which is enough to be a tiny bit over weapon and shield needs.

Basically, 4 IR and a antimatter blaster has twice the energy weapon damage with only 150 seconds of PPT, but no missile burst.

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Kinsume

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2022, 04:57:53 PM »

I see, that makes a bit more sense I think. Always been real bad at designing ships, reminds me of the old space empires days. I'm giving the missile scarab a shot, though I don't have the front shield conversion yet. Also trying out the Medusa setup and seeing how it does.

As a side-note, I ran across a guy selling a no d-mod Dominator for 64k in a bar so I grabbed it since they usually run atleast double that on the market. Not sure if it fits in my current setup or not.
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tseikk1

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2022, 05:25:52 PM »

My favourite subject. Wolfpack tactics imo is the most fun way to play the game.
Here are some of the builds I used in my last campaign - stripped of their story point upgrades. Some extra advice regarding wolfpack tactics: Try to have all aggressive officers, except if using the Eradicator, in which case you should go with reckless.

THE BASIC WOLF: Don't s-mod these ever, and get rid of them as soon as you can get something better. Really weak flux stats and bad shield make this one not good in even mid-game encounters
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THE BASIC OMEN: Consider assigning officers with Systems Expertise, Point Defense, (Elite) Target Analysis, (Elite) Field Modulation and (Elite) Energy Weapons Mastery to this one. Consider S-modding Hardened Shields, Hardened Subsystems. This ship is incredibly versatile, works well even without officers (for example when running with Support Doctrine) and has great synergy with some of the best [MEGA-Redacted] weapons you'll get in the late game.
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THE SPEEDY BOI, SAFETY OVERRIDES TEMPEST: This ship lost its powerful High Energy Focuser ship system in favor of one that it's actually best off not using, ever, as it hurts itself by using it. It has a low amount of ordnance points, is very squishy, has low base flux stats and an EXTREMELY small shield, leaving it very cost-ineffective against anything but pirates. Almost worse than the wolf, and that's saying something for a "quintessential attack frigate". Don't recommend keeping these around outside of the early-mid game. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
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THE ACTUALLY GOOD SPEEDY BOI, SAFETY OVERRIDES SCARAB: There are many, many ways to create a good scarab build, so feel free to experiment, maybe you'll find a better one yourself. Always recommend shield conversion - front, though. Officers with Systems Expertise, (elite) Energy Weapons Mastery, Target Analysis and (Elite) Field Modulation have great synergy. Consider S-modding in Hardened Shields and -Subsystems.
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THE NOT QUITE AS SPEEDY, BUT STILL VERY SPEEDY BOI, THE BASIC SCARAB: Same story as above, but not with safety overrides. This is what I used in my late game fights against late game stuff%u2122, although with some [MEGA-Redacted] weapons. Remember, you can go crazy with the scarab. Almost anything works, just remember to use shield conversion - front.
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THE OVERDRIVEN DESTROYER DUO: These are quite similar in function, both of them like to get close, use their ship system and blast the enemy until it dies. Both of them also heavily benefit from S-modded Hardened Subsystems and Extended Shields especially, as well as officers with Systems Expertise, (elite)Ballistic/Energy weapon mastery, Target Analysis and Field Modulation. Both of these are also quite squishy and will die more often than frigates because they are bigger and slower. Don't let that discourage you, though. Use either Support Doctrine (if without officer) Derelict Operations or Hull Restoration, or even combinations of these, to make sure you don't care about these being disposable.
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THE HUNTER-KILLER/POINT DEFENSE HYBRID MEDUSA: A favourite of mine. Heavily benefits from Elite Point Defense skill, as well as Systems Expertise. Great at hunting anything smaller than it, great at dispatching fighters and missiles. Has enough punch to be a big help with capitals and cruisers. Absolute MVP when fighting doritos. Gets a great upgrade with [MEGA-Redacted] weapons.
Consider S-modding Advanced Optics, Extended Shields and Hardened shields. I used 3 of these all the way to the hardest fights with great success.
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THE SAFETY OVERRIDES MEDUSA: In my opinion outclassed by the above, but still, it has to be mentioned. A combination of kinetics, emp and big damage is always scary.
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THE JUGGERNAUT OVERDRIVEN ERADICATOR: You might be thinking, what is a cruiser doing in a wolfpack fleet? Let me tell you. It's as fast as a slow frigate, with INCREDIBLE firepower and tankiness. It's also burn 9, so it doesn't slow down your fleet. It helps with wolfpacks greatest weakness, orbital stations. It can face tank radiants. It brings ALL the dakka. It's fun and satisfying to watch. Try it. Enjoy it. Easily the MVP of my entire wolfpack fleet last run. Benefits from S-modded Heavy Armor, Hardened Subsystems, Expanded Missile Racks or Reinforced Bulkheads. Best officer skills are Systems Expertise, Ballistic Mastery, (Elite) Point Defense, and any and all defensive skills you can get. Mine were piloted by level 7 officers with 5 elites I found in derelicts around the sector.
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THE CROWN JEWEL, THE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH, THE NOTHIN' PERSONNEL KID, THE FRIGATE WITH THE STATS OF A CRUISER, THE ONE AND ONLY HYPERION:
An incredible, probably overpowered frigate. Any wolfpack fleet should aim to get at least a few to capture points. These can be massed with great success, too. I used 3. S-mods are not as necessary as in other ships, since Hyperion has such great base stats already and all necessary hullmods can just barely fit without S-modding. Officers, on the other hand, are extremely necessary: Systems Expertise, once again, a must have, as well as Target Analysis and (Elite) Energy Weapon Mastery. Hyperion can also be used without SO for great value in really big fights where it's small peak performance time would be too low to last, but doing this absolutely necessitates Helmsmanship Elite. Couldn't find a fresh hyperion hull anywhere quick, so the build will have s-mods. if you don't want to s-mod just remove all vents and add the hullmods.
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THE ILLEGAL FRIGATE: Do you want to win the ECM race in every fight? Do you want even more value out of wolfpack tactics? Do you want to have a disposable line of deadly little chestnuts swarm your enemies? Automated Ships is the skill for you. AI cores benefit from wolfpack tactics, and remnants have a nice little frigate: the Glimmer. When using Crew Training while under 240DP, and having the AI core of each ship use Combat Readiness as one of its skills you can have 12 Beta Core Glimmers with 67% Combat Readiness, which is more than enough for pretty much anything. The Glimmer is in many ways the same as the Scarab. Multiple things work, but in all good builds, Shield conversion - front AND Extended Shields are a must. Even with those, Safety Overrides and defensive combat skills, they will still die a lot thanks to the AI cores "fearless" personality. Preferred use with either Derelict Contingent or Hull Restoration. Here are my two favourite builds, The "basic" EMP Droneship and the [MEGA-Redacted] abuser. Both variants will have their AI cores pick Combat Endurance, Field Modulation, Target Analysis, Gunnery Implants and Energy Weapon Mastery, though the EMP droneship will additionally pick Ordnance Expertise, while the [MEGA-Redacted] abuser will pick Systems Expertise. Recommended S-mods are Hardened Subsystems, Hardened Shields and Extended shields, although, let's be honest, you'll end your playthrough before you have enough story points to use on these.
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SOME MORE SHIPS AND THOUGHTS: The Fury, Falcon XIV and Falcon P are cruisers that can kind of do what the Eradicator does. I was just so amazed with the Eradicator's performance I didn't even bother testing the others. You might want to, though. Don't know.

The station killer astral: I ran with two of these in the mid game, because my fleet was having problems with some of the bigger pirate and pather stations. I quickly realised these were not worth the cost to have in the fleet constantly. Before becoming an Eradicator enjoyer I used to pick these up whenever I went station-busting.
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The artillery Manticore: Overall just straight up underwhelming performance, which is surprising. Somehow it was constantly out of position and died almost every mid-late game fight.
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The be-all and end-all spoiler ship: Issue wasn't that this ship isn't good, but quite the opposite. Even strictly under AI control it was too good to the point it made the game very boring, so I dropped it. Here is the build, anyways. Care for major spoilers.
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« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 05:34:37 PM by tseikk1 »
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Gergin

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2022, 06:12:49 PM »

People are absolutely sleeping on the Luddic Path Cerberus.  It is downright lethal when fitted and officered correctly and decent even without an officer when used en masse.
Your officers should be Aggressive or Reckless and top priority skill is Elite Point Defense followed by Polarized Armor.
With their cargo space, you don't even need freighters unless you're looking to do bulk trading.  They'll smuggle high value stuff just fine or carry their own supplies if you're roving.

Field Repairs and Hull Restoration are pretty important skills on top of your obvious Wolfpack, Coordinated Maneuvers and Officer skills.  These are ships that you need to get used to seeing them get disabled.  Against heavy beam fleets, there's gonna be losses in the initial volley but once they get up close, they can overwhelm just about anything.  The other ship that is a priority target are Assault Chaingun Hounds.  Kill them immediately.
Good tactic is to deploy 10 or 15 with 5 officers.  Let them tear through the frigates and smaller stuff and then you can bring in your second wave if needed.

1 SP per ship and you can always build in a second mod later so you can use something like Resistant Flux Conduits or Solar Shielding.

THERE IS A MASSIVE CAVEAT TO THIS SHIP.
In the current version, there is an AI problem where shieldless ships with short range weaponry have too large a distance buffer on low hull enemies.  Alex has already put in a fix but it won't be in until the next release. 
As of right now, their performance against Capitals is very bad because they'll just stop fighting and circle around it endlessly and die.  Against frigates, they'll usually throw enough lead out to kill their target before the threshold is reached and the behavior presents itself.  Just a word of warning if you try this and notice subpar performance.  If you mixed in some shielded frigates (LP Lashers for example), it would work fine because you just need something else to deal the killing blow.

Officer Fit (Chaingun and LMGs are group together, vulcan is alone)
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Non Officer Fit (Chaingun and ACs are grouped, vulcan is alone)
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Officer Skills
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 07:31:07 PM by Gergin »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Need some wolfpack tactics ship builds
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2022, 06:16:50 PM »

I see, that makes a bit more sense I think. Always been real bad at designing ships, reminds me of the old space empires days. I'm giving the missile scarab a shot, though I don't have the front shield conversion yet. Also trying out the Medusa setup and seeing how it does.

As a side-note, I ran across a guy selling a no d-mod Dominator for 64k in a bar so I grabbed it since they usually run atleast double that on the market. Not sure if it fits in my current setup or not.

Dominator is going to slow the fleet down on the campaign map to burn 8, but as far as what the fleet needs to take on the next tier of opponents (i.e. cruisers), it is an OK choice these days.  I generally view Dominators as good at punching up, namely large, slow targets, such as many cruisers and capitals.  They are much worse at dealing with frigates and destroyers, but the rest of your current fleet seems to have that covered.

However, unlike your destroyers and frigates, your Dominator is not going to be able to retreat at the drop of a hat.  Which means when you deploy it, you're much more committed to win that round, or else it'll likely be left behind if you do need to retreat and redeploy.  You can mitigate this somewhat by keeping it close to your edge of the map.

The Dominator is probably better off without safety overrides because of the large mounts, although you can try it.  The improved burn drive might help with getting in range, as the traditional problem with an SO Dominator is getting within 450 range of frigates and destroyers.  So I'd recommend a standard build.  Although I can not over emphasize how much a non-SO Dominator benefits from an officer with Ordiance Expertise.  It can often provide upwards of 240 flux dissipation, jumping the Dominator from 800 to more like 1040 dissipation, which is a huge improvement (25% or more flux).  Such an officer can eventually transition to an Onslaught as well, which has a similar mount/OP/base dissipation situation going on.

There's a number of weapon permuations that a Dominator can do.  Generally good anti-armor is in the large (Mjolnir, Hellbore, Hephaestus) or mediums (Heavy Mauler, Typhon launchers, Harpoon launchers, Breach SRM pods).  Good kinetic can go in the large (Mark IV), mediums (Hypervelocity drivers, Heavy Autocannons, Heavy Needlers, Sabot pods) or smalls (light needlers or railguns) although the smalls will really want ballistic rangefinder to get 900 range.  I like vulcans in the smalls for PD, and if you're using the front 3 smalls for kinetics, put some flak or dual flak in the mediums.  Dedicated Targeting Core or even better, Integrated Targeting Unit is a must have.  Vents maxed are also pretty much mandatory.  Heavy armor and expanded missile racks are prime s-mod choices if you do choose to go that route.  Expanded missile racks and Missile specialization on a level 4 or 5 officer offers 108 Harpoons for example, which can be your method of securing kills.

I find Hellbores good at cracking armor, but not so good at sustained hull damage.  Same with heavy maulers.  Typically backing those up with reapers or harpoons are a good choice.  If you're running something more like a Hephaestus or Mjolnir, then you might consider the sabot pods to help support bursts of kinetic pressure.

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